Spiritual director's advice

[Nunsuch]

One of the blessings of the internet is that we can learn from those we may never meet face to face, or may never have encountered otherwise. I have a lot of expertise in my own area (I am a tenured professor of history, and have published extensively in certain areas), but there are a lot more things I do not know about, and I welcome hearing from those who do. As Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan (a lifelong Catholic, by the way) once famously said: "You are entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts." Thus, while I hope that I will listen respectfully to everyone, I tend to give more credence in the views of those who seem to have a substantive basis for what they are talking about. 

[Sponsa-Christi]

This is actually a really interesting discussion, and I'm finding myself agreeing with different people on different points.

For example, I agree with Egeria that there are different valid approaches to SD across the universal Church which should be respected. And while I think specific training in SD can certainly be valuable, I don't think it's always totally necessary (although I personally think anybody doing SD should have at least a basic academic background in theology).

However, Francis Clare's posts are also resonating with me, in that I also see an SD's role as being more of a co-discerner rather than a quasi-religious superior. Although even here, while I wouldn't agree that an SD should expect "blind obedience," I think it's only common sense that one give one's SD at least some degree of deference. After all, if you didn't trust your SD to give sound advice and to see things in your life that you yourself might be missing/overlooking/trying to ignore, it sort of defeats the point of having an SD in the first place.

My two cents here---and I know this won't be a popular thing to say---is that I would be VERY careful about having an SD whose main positive attribute was being "traditional." Of course, "traditional" can mean a lot of things, and certainly one should have an SD who is orthodox and who "thinks with the Church." But I've found in my personal experience that sometimes---granted, certainly not always, but often enough---priests who whole-hardheartedly embrace "traddy" culture can sometimes have personal issues or unbalanced ideas about the Church that they appear to be using trad culture to cover up. 

I can appreciate where many Catholics might have a positive spiritual affinity for the TLM and "traditional" spirituality, and I can see how a "traditional priest" might be a good SD for a Catholic who felt this way. But an SD should have a number of more substantial good qualities, and an SD's traditonalist leanings should be more like a bonus rather than than his main qualification. 

[veritasluxmea]

It's also interesting to note a few things in the examples of saint's lives where they did follow blind obedience to their confessor. First of all, their confessors were saints themselves. St Gemma Galgani, St Margaret Mary Aloque, and St Faustina are good examples of this. Their confessors are now in the process of canonization (or have already been canonized). Do you really think your spiritual director is a living saint? I'm guessing they're pretty holy- but canonizable holiness? be realistic. They're a human being. 

Secondly, the confessors were pretty much picked by God and He made it clear to those people He wanted them to follow that particular person. St Faustina's diary is a great example of this. Have you received mystical allocations God wants you to follow this person so closely? 

Thirdly, when these saints had "regular" confessors who worked with them as spiritual directors, they *did* follow them blindly out of their effort to practice great virtue. But frankly when the guy wasn't up for the job- wrong direction or not believing the person or so on- God didn't let them remain as their director for life. God was pleased with the saint's willingness to be blindly obedient, but not pleased with bad advice. With these great saints He was working directly in their lives and didn't let them remain under bad direction for long. 

Fourthly, I'm pretty sure most people reading this are not great mystics or saints. Sorry. If you remain passively with someone who is a bad SD or even just a bad fit, and you don't do any discernment on your part- you just accept it- He'll let you have bad spiritual direction/confession. That *can* ruin your discernment- St Theresa of Avila suggests even your soul and prayer life. God probably understands that you're simply trying to practice obedience and might not hold it against you, but ignorance isn't a great excuse. I'm pretty sure most of us here are called to holiness using ordinary means. So use them. God isn't going to give you a vision on who you should be blindly obedient too. Be careful about who you go to for confession and spiritual direction. Be aware of things that aren't ok (and yes, oppressing their will on the directee and having a "do as I say" attitude ISN'T ok). Be open and willing to be obedient- with the right person, who communicates well with you what they are thinking and understanding, and understands you and is wanting to work with you. 

St Theresa of Avila had a similar attitude about finding the "right" spiritual director. This article lays it out pretty well. If you don't find those qualities there, you should have the confidence and prudence to walk away. 

http://patrickmadrid.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Qualities_Spiritual_Director.pdf 

[MarysLittleFlower]

I don't think the requirements for obeying an SD is being a mystic who was told this is just the right SD who is also a saint. I believe the Saints would have followed their SD in obedience even if he wasnt a Saint and they weren't mystics. I think this way because various Saints were still obedient even when the SD made a mistake yes maybe later God corrected him or brought a new SD but the Saints' obedience was never treated as a problem, but as virtue. As for using ordinary means to see if an SD is good, it looks to me like the original poster is doing that. I'm going to make a final point here. I really believe that if we pick and choose what we follow from what we are told in direction, we would choose based on our comfort much of the time. 

[Gabriela]

6 hours ago, Sponsa-Christi said:

My two cents here---and I know this won't be a popular thing to say---is that I would be VERY careful about having an SD whose main positive attribute was being "traditional." Of course, "traditional" can mean a lot of things, and certainly one should have an SD who is orthodox and who "thinks with the Church." But I've found in my personal experience that sometimes---granted, certainly not always, but often enough---priests who whole-hardheartedly embrace "traddy" culture can sometimes have personal issues or unbalanced ideas about the Church that they appear to be using trad culture to cover up. 

I can appreciate where many Catholics might have a positive spiritual affinity for the TLM and "traditional" spirituality, and I can see how a "traditional priest" might be a good SD for a Catholic who felt this way. But an SD should have a number of more substantial good qualities, and an SD's traditonalist leanings should be more like a bonus rather than than his main qualification. 

I'm glad you said this, because as soon as I read the OP's description of her priest, it's exactly what I thought, too. I say this as a trad: A lot of trad priests seem to become trad priests because they know that trads believe in extreme authority and they will give them extreme authority over their lives.

It's not healthy, and just being trad does not mean the man is holy. Neither does the fact that everybody likes him. Trads always love trad priests. They wouldn't dare criticize them—and that is also unhealthy.

I have not read the thread about the community the OP is discerning with, but I also see the trend others have referred to: People who actually have education and experience and rock-solid credentials get dismissed on here as if all their cred is worth only as much as other people's opinions. That's no good. If you really believe in authority, then these people's education and experience should mean something to you—something more than "random Catholics'" opinions.

I can see the point about obedience to one's SD, and about accompaniment in discernment. I think there are "two styles". But no one should give blind obedience to anyone. If your abbess ordered you to smack your sister, would you do it? You know that's not of God. If your SD ordered you to ignore a community that you feel very certain God is calling you to, is that order of God? Again, maybe the community is problematic and the man is right. But the principle still stands: You can't just shut off your brain and let him make your life decisions for you. You need to be part of the process, or else it isn't your discernment, it's just your giving up.

As for being "much of a pagan style and rebellious and cold to God, self-centered and self-righteous, treat sins as nothing, and always easily justiy myself"... well, sheesh, that's all of us. Don't beat yourself up.

[veritasluxmea]

2 hours ago, MarysLittleFlower said:

I don't think the requirements for obeying an SD is being a mystic who was told this is just the right SD who is also a saint. 

Where did I say that? 

2 hours ago, MarysLittleFlower said:

 I think this way because various Saints were still obedient even when the SD made a mistake 

"they *did* follow them blindly out of their effort to practice great virtue. But frankly when the guy wasn't up for the job- wrong direction or not believing the person or so on- God didn't let them remain as their director for life. God was pleased with the saint's willingness to be blindly obedient, but not pleased with bad advice. " You need to discern if you are pleasing God by forcing yourself to work with a bad fit. You could damage yourself- and God's will for you- this way. 

2 hours ago, MarysLittleFlower said:

 yes maybe later God corrected him or brought a new SD but the Saints' obedience was never treated as a problem, but as virtue. 

"If you remain passively with someone who is a bad SD or even just a bad fit, and you don't do any discernment on your part- you just accept it- He'll let you have bad spiritual direction/confession. That *can* ruin your discernment- St Theresa of Avila suggests even your soul and prayer life. God probably understands that you're simply trying to practice obedience and might not hold it against you, but ignorance isn't a great excuse. I'm pretty sure most of us here are called to holiness using ordinary means. So use them. God isn't going to give you a vision on who you should be blindly obedient too. "

Blind obedience isn't going to save you or your soul when you're being abused and misled. 

Blind obedience isn't going to save you or your soul when you're being abused and misled. You have control and responsibility over your relationship as a layperson with a spiritual director and you need to take your part seriously. 

2 hours ago, MarysLittleFlower said:

As for using ordinary means to see if an SD is good, it looks to me like the original poster is doing that. 

I assume so too. I'm talking about situations in general, not her particular situation. 

2 hours ago, MarysLittleFlower said:

 I really believe that if we pick and choose what we follow from what we are told in direction, we would choose based on our comfort much of the time. 

Literally no one is suggesting we pick and chose what we follow. I *am* suggesting we be careful WHO we chose to follow. One of the signs you're following the wrong confessor? Oppressive behavior, "do as I say" attitude without really caring how it affects you, and so on. 

Don't use the extreme examples of the grants saints dealing with tough spiritual directors to justify staying in a harmful situation. Blind obedience isn't going to save you or your soul when you're being abused and misled. It's waaaay more likely God is calling you to grow in discernment and as a person by taking responsibility for yourself than He's asking you to stay in a bad situation and be led around in circles- or worse, into permanently bad vocations or decisions- simply because you have a good desire to practice obedience to someone who's unqualified and doesn't know what they're doing. 

[vee]

Scripture says be as shrewd as serpents and as gentle/innocent/harmless (depending on translation) as doves.  We are to keep our wits about us!  A modern example I might give could be Mother Angelica and Mother Teresa, Be shrewd and wise always!!! 

[MarysLittleFlower]

I'm not saying we should willingly follow a bad director! I just don't think this means that Mary has a bad director . He just gave her some advice.

I have been going to a Latin Mass parish for a while and we've had various priests because they get transfered around once in a while. They are all "trad" priests and the ones I spoke to about my spiritual life have all been very well formed, responsible and ..well, normal! They didn't abuse authority. Maybe sometimes their advice might be more "traddy" than some other priests may give. Which fits me just fine because I chose a traditional parish for a reason. I also know a very holy diocesan priest who likes the TLM. He's a very gentle person who would never abuse authority.

I'm not sure what priests people have met but I haven't seen that with the FSSP or diocesan priests. I don't think its wrong or insulting to say that I'd trust their view over people on a forum even with training and credentials. I'm not dismissing their credentials. But my priest actually knows me and he's trained too. What makes his view less credible?

Regarding dismissing peoples views about what spiritual direction is - again I'm not dismissing them, I think maybe there are different views and I simply read other sources. For the record - these sources do NOT say its ok to abuse authority etc. They just talk about trust in a confessor or importance of obedience.

Maybe some have been taught slightly different views but it doesn't mean there are no other approaches in the Church. I just don't think any of this means that Mary's SD is doing something wrong. It might be confusing to her to ask  question about growing in faith and asking for prayer, and then read 3 pages of debate about her SD. I know I'd be confused.

If an SD was actually unreasonable and just weird, that would be one thing. Giving 'tough' spiritual advice isn't it. Especially when the person felt this too in prayer. If I came to ask for help and people questioned my SD who is a faithful priest and isn't over stepping bounds, I'd still stick with the view of my SD over people online, sorry. I don't think that's an insult, but what most would do. 

Here's what St Francis De Sales says on the topic. I wouldn't dare say something like "St Francis is wrong on spiritual direction". 

So we don't make vows of obedience to priests but no reason for the general principles not to apply today. Maybe some would disagree with this quote but I don't think anyone could dismiss St Francis as not knowing what he's saying. Its legit to follow his view  even if some have been taught other views. 

Introduction to the Devout Life

The Need of a Guide for Those Who Would Enter Upon and Advance in the Devout Life

Part I, Chapter 4

« prev : next »

When Tobias was bidden to go to Rages, he was willing to obey his father, but he objected that he knew not the way;--to which Tobit answered, "Seek thee a man which may go with thee:"and even so, daughter, I say to you, If you would really tread the paths of the devout life, seek some holy man to guide and conduct you. This is the precept of precepts, says the devout Avila,--seek as you will you can never so surely discover God's Will as through the channel of humble obedience so universally taught and practised by all the Saints of olden time. When the blessed Teresa read of the great penances performed by Catherine of Cordova, she desired exceedingly to imitate them, contrary to the mind of her Confessor, who forbade her to do the like, and she was tempted to disobey him therein. Then God spoke to Teresa, saying, "My child, thou art on a good and safe road:-- true, thou seest all this penance, but verily I esteem thy obedience as a yet greater virtue:" --and thenceforth Saint Teresa so greatly loved the virtue of obedience, that in addition to that due to her superiors, she took a vow of special obedience to a pious ecclesiastic, pledging herself to follow his direction and guidance, which proved an inexpressible help to her. And even so before and after her many pious souls have subjected their will to God's ministers in order the better to submit themselves to Him, a practice much commended by Saint Catherine of Sienna in her Dialogues. The devout Princess Saint Elisabeth gave an unlimited obedience to the venerable Conrad; and one of the parting counsels given by Saint Louis to his son ere he died was, "Confess thyself often,--choose a single-minded, worthy confessor, who is able wisely to teach thee how to do that which is needful for thee.""A faithful friend," we are told in Holy Scripture, "is a strong defence, and he that hath found such an one hath found a treasure;"and again: "A faithful friend is the medicine of life; and they that fear the Lord shall find him."These sacred words have chiefly reference, as you see, to the immortal life, with a view to which we specially need a faithful friend, who will guide us by his counsel and advice, thereby guarding us against the deceits and snares of the Evil One:--he will be as a storehouse of wisdom to us in our sorrows, trials and falls; he will be as a healing balm to stay and soothe our heart in the time of spiritual sickness,--he will shield us from evil, and confirm that which is good in us, and when we fall through infirmity, he will avert the deadly nature of the evil, and raise us up again.

But who can find such a friend? The Wise Man answers:--"He that feareth the Lord:" that is to say, the truly humble soul which earnestly desires to advance in the spiritual life. So, daughter, inasmuch as it concerns you so closely to set forth on this devout journey under good guidance, do you pray most earnestly to God to supply you with a guide after His Own Heart, and never doubt but that He will grant you one who is wise and faithful, even should He send you an angel from Heaven, as He sent to Tobias.

In truth, your spiritual guide should always be as a heaven-sent angel to you;--by which I mean that when you have found him, you are not to look upon him, or trust in him or his wisdom as an ordinary man; but you must look to God, Who will help you and speak to you through this man, putting into his heart and mouth that which is needful to you; so that you ought to hearken as though he were an angel come down from Heaven to lead you thither. Deal with him in all sincerity and faithfulness, and with open heart; manifesting alike your good and your evil, without pretence or dissimulation. Thus your good will be examined and confirmed, and your evil corrected and remedied; --you will be soothed and strengthened in trouble, moderated and regulated in prosperity. Give your guide a hearty confidence mingled with sacred reverence, so that reverence in no way shall hinder your confidence, and confidence nowise lessen your reverence: trust him with the respect of a daughter for her father; respect him with the confidence of a son in his mother. In a word, such a friendship should be strong and sweet; altogether holy, sacred, divine and spiritual. And with such an aim, choose one among a thousand, Avila says;--and I say among ten thousand, for there are fewer than one would think capable of this office. He must needs be full of love, of wisdom and of discretion; for if either of these three be wanting there is danger. But once more I say, ask such help of God, and when you have found it, bless His Holy Name; be stedfast, seek no more, but go on simply, humbly and trustfully, for you are safe to make a prosperous journey.

Source: http://www.catholicity.com/devoutlife/1-04.html

What would have happened to St Teresa if she thought "I have a right to my own view. My SD thinks these penances are not for me but I respectfully disagree and I have a right to this. My director can't forbid me to do something, only counsel, and I have a right to say yes or no and think about it myself. I thought about it and decided he's incorrect". That would have been a prideful reliance on self and she would have gone into spiritual danger and exposed herself to temptation. Her obedience kept her safe. 

Edited February 18, 2016 by MarysLittleFlower

[MarysLittleFlower]

Anyway I'm going to trust St Francis De Sales on his view of spiritual direction and I feel very safe doing this. He said " And even so before and after her many pious souls have subjected their will to God's ministers in order the better to submit themselves to Him, a practice much commended by Saint Catherine of Sienna in her Dialogues." " If you would really tread the paths of the devout life, seek some holy man to guide and conduct you. This is the precept of precepts, says the devout Avila,--seek as you will you can never so surely discover God's Will as through the channel of humble obedience so universally taught and practised by all the Saints of olden time." " you are not to look upon him, or trust in him or his wisdom as an ordinary man; but you must look to God, Who will help you and speak to you through this man, putting into his heart and mouth that which is needful to you"

[veritasluxmea]

Mmm. I'm starting to think maybe there isn't a disagreement here.

7 hours ago, MarysLittleFlower said:

I'm not saying we should willingly follow a bad director! I just don't think this means that Mary has a bad director . He just gave her some advice.

First of all, I'm not talking about Mary, you, or anyone in particular. I'm just talking about spiritual direction in general. It sounds like everyone has had positive experiences. I'm glad to hear that, but that's not what I'm talking about. 

Secondly, no one is saying you should pick and choose advice. No one is saying you should set yourself up for as your own judge. No one is saying you should be disobedient in normal circumstances at any time.

Everyone here agrees with St Francis. Actually St Francis makes my point: "Confess thyself often,--choose a single-minded, worthy confessor, who is able wisely to teach thee how to do that which is needful for thee."..."A faithful friend, is a strong defence, A faithful friend is the medicine of life; and they that fear the Lord shall find him... we specially need a faithful friend, who will guide us by his counsel and advice, thereby guarding us against the deceits and snares of the Evil One... But who can find such a friend? ... the truly humble soul which earnestly desires to advance in the spiritual life... do you pray most earnestly to God to supply you with a guide after His Own Heart, and never doubt but that He will grant you one who is wise and faithful." 

St Francis assumes there is a need for friendship, and advice, not a dictatorship. We can all agree on that. So, there doesn't seem to be a disagreement here.

What I am saying is that you shouldn't completely trust yourself to "just know" or assume that because they are popular or a priest or more orthodox-minded you can find out who is a good guide, especially if you are a young, emotional woman, to be frank. 

Edited February 18, 2016 by veritasluxmea

[MarysLittleFlower]

Ok maybe we really don't disagree I'm a little confused about the last paragraph though, - if being an orthodox priest isn't enough, how do we even tell? 

[veritasluxmea]

This is kind of in-depth but just skimming it gives a good idea. FC can probably explain better. 

http://patrickmadrid.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Qualities_Spiritual_Director.pdf 

[MarysLittleFlower]

Ok! many good points there... I think my SD does fit this description - I just skimmed it. I notice it says not to put things in writing.... I have anxiety talking about some more interior things and I've written them down before and it was much clearer that way what I was saying. My SD let me do this but always gave me the letters back. I think that's fine? I mean I was allowed. And it really helped. I am sure my priest would never leave them lying around. 

[Gabriela]

A bishop does not assign just any priest to be the administrator of a parish. He does not assign just any priest to the crazy diverse, always fighting amongst themselves parish on Main Street. He does not assign just any priest to the divorce court. He does not assign just any priest to the high school.

"Being an orthodox priest" is not enough to fulfill any particular function except for being an orthodox priest. You can trust his sacraments are valid and licit.

.

.

.

Dang, I tried to think of a three-part thing to put there, like a good rhetorician, but I couldn't come up with anything. All you can trust is that his sacraments are valid and licit.

The bishop is (hopefully) not a fool, so he knows that certain jobs require certain personalities, skills, education, experience, etc. A person with little capacity for empathy and compassion, or someone who is impatient with others' faults, or someone whose communication style often comes off as aggressive () would not make a very good SD. Neither would someone who, for whatever reason, gets some kind of ego boost out of controlling other people's lives, or who thinks he's right all the time and so can't accept that God leads other people, too.

I'm glad that veritas provided a good list. I hope everyone will keep that in mind when "vetting" a SD, cuz seriously, orthodoxy—even tradism—is not enough. We can all think of plenty of orthodox priests who turned out—in the media spotlight, for the whole world to see—to be not very orthodox at all. I shall not name names. You know who I'm talking about.

[Sponsa-Christi]

A few more random thoughts here:

Building a bit on what Gabriela just said...not every good priest is going to be a good spiritual director, and even an objectively good SD isn't always going to be the best fit for you. For example, some diocesan priests have unrealistic ideas about what women's religious life is actually like, or have a only a very superficial understanding of how to discern a vocation to enter a convent (though on the other hand, often I've found that religious priests can tend to have a hard time taking consecrated virginity seriously as a "real" form of consecrated life.) I've known several holy, orthodox priests whom I wouldn't hesitate to recommend to other people as SDs, but whom I personally wouldn't go to for my own spiritual direction. 

Regarding what several people mentioned about saints and "blind obedience"...someone once said that you can wind up in hell by imitating the defects of the saints! Maybe that's a bit hyperbolic, but I think there is some truth to that saying. Many of the saints who stressed blindly obeying bad SDs were very simple souls who truly might not have known any better. Those of us who are blessed to have access to more education and resources perhaps shouldn't count on the Lord to be as pleased with (or as tolerant of!) our own blind obedience to a bad SD.

Also, I recall that St. John of the Cross once wrote that the three greatest obstacles to our reaching union with God are: 1. ourselves; 2. the devil; 3. a bad SD. There is a whole huge chunk of Living Flame of Love which is basically just St. John ranting about how much damage bad SDs can do!

4 hours ago, MarysLittleFlower said:

Ok! many good points there... I think my SD does fit this description - I just skimmed it. I notice it says not to put things in writing.... I have anxiety talking about some more interior things and I've written them down before and it was much clearer that way what I was saying. My SD let me do this but always gave me the letters back. I think that's fine? I mean I was allowed. And it really helped. I am sure my priest would never leave them lying around. 

This may be an overall good handout, but it's neither canon law nor magisterial teaching! There can be prudential concerns with putting things in writing, but it's not something which the Church would actually ban. And, as you've mentioned, in some cases there can be good reasons for writing things down.