Spiritual director's advice

[Mary Catherine]

Dear friends on Phatmass,

I am very sad, because my spiritual director said I am still not converted yet, and I can't go to the congregation I want, and I think he's not satisfied with the congregation either, now he asked me to pray much during this Lent.

I am not sure if I can be converted when this Lent is over.

So, can you please pray for me so that I can receive God's grace within a short period of time? Many thanks.

 

[NadaTeTurbe]

What does he/you mean by "converted" ? I don't understand... 

[Makarioi]

I don't know what that means either. In reading your past posts about the congregation, maybe I see his concern

[Feankie]

As a SD myself, I can assure you I would never, nor could I as I haven't any "power" over my directees, tell someone categorically they couldn't enter where they so choose.  Of course I could make suggestions, but not put my foot down and give a firm "No, you can't enter at XYZ monastery/convent/Order.  I find that a bit odd and controlling.  If I, as a SD had concerns about your prospective Order, of course I would voice them, but give a solid rationale as to why I thought that way.  Is your SD a priest?  A Religious?  A lay person?  How long have you been seeing him?  Do you talk about your spiritual life in general, or focus only on your discernment.  As those other posters have asked, what does he mean by not being converted?  Remember, through all of this YOU are the one in control.  Please do not abdicate your right to dissent if you have solid reasons.  I don't know anything about you or your discernment process......these are just some generalities.

[McM RSCJ]

When you described the situation of the two women who want you to join them--and whom you want to join, I know "four alarm bells" went off inside me, so much so that, even without knowing you or the situation, I pointed out some obvious concerns.  I have long and happy experience as a Religious.  And I have also observed over the years some unfortunate, even harmful, new groupings or efforts to start new communities, so I thought I had something offer. . . . 

Now when you say your Spiritual Director says you can't go join those two women, another "four alarm bells" are going off. 

He says you can't go?  Does your wording mean you have ceded to him command over your decisions?  Or did he make clear he strongly recommends you do not join them? 

There is a crucial difference. I hope you are referring to his strong recommendation or advice or list of concerns.  (Yes?  No?)

 

 

[MarysLittleFlower]

I am also wondering what he meant... Is your SD a priest? Did he mean that it would be best to work on overcoming areas of sin or growing in more love for God first?

Maybe I have a bit of "old fashioned" views on spiritual direction (to me its not old fashioned though), but I dont think its wrong for an SD to simply say what to do.

I don't see direction as giving advice like going to a counsellor. Even if you're not placed under his obedience, there is a certain spiritual authority and obedience already there. Same with confessors. That's why its such a big deal being an SD and being a good one: there's a responsibility for souls.

But the person being directed also needs to trust their SD and follow his view. It seems kind of incorrect to me to say "I'm sorry but I have a different view, so I disagree". Of course an SD can't lead anyone into sin. But if its not sinful what we're asked to do, its humble and simple to just do it. I don't see it as counselling but guiding.

If my SD thought I should wait to discern, I would believe that is God's Will. We can see in the lives of the Saints that even when God had another plan, He worked within what the SD allowed, and eventually if the SD was incorrect, they changed their mind. But I wouldn't have the attitude of distrusting the SD. Its good to just take what he says as God's Will. if he believes you need more conversion, maybe you can ask him what he means and how to grow in that there was a time I wanted to do something and my SD thought I'm not ready, so I'll just keep growing in my faith till he decides I am. it can be a humbling thing for us.

Don't be too discouraged. When its God's time, you would be where He wants you in terms of vocation. As for joining a new community, I think it depends on the community because sometimes its worked and other times it hasn't. You need to make sure the community is healthy.

About your SD... If he's a good orthodox priest and trained in this, I don't think its dangerous to just trust him in some other cases I'd be cautious. If he was a counsellor I'd approach it differently. 

[Mary Catherine]

Thanks everyone here, especially Maryslittleflower.

I am a convert to Catholicism, very new to the faith. And through prayer I found that my SD is righy, I am still not converted yet, much of a pagan style and rebellious and cold to God, self-centered and self-righteous, treat sins as nothing, and always easily justiy myself.

Per my SD's suggestions, I will pray hard and fast much during this Lent to find my way to God.

And I feel really warm here.  Thank you all beautiful sisters.

[MarysLittleFlower]

Mary Catherine, I'm a convert too how long has it been for you? 

Maybe all this can be a humbling thing, but if we establish ourselves in humility, we would be more safe later on. I've been seeing things I need to work on in myself and it can be overwhelming. Have hope in God and rely on Him I've been told that mental prayer is very helpful to transform us and I think its true. We all need a continual type of conversion and theres also something called a second conversion which is deeper. God bless you!

[Feankie]

MLF and others.....some things in your posts make me a little squirmy :))  As a SD, I cannot "simply say what to do".  I am a "Spiritual Director" not a "Spiritual Dictator" :))  My job is to help my directee/s answer their own questions, but mining what is deep inside them/through prayer/through searching the Scriptures. I'm not infallible and I welcome honest, frank, heartfelt discourse when a directee and I disagree.  In the end I must leave it up to them to make the final decision.  But not without providing some background and insight for them to ponder, and some suggestions as well.  I cannot and would not, nor would it be ethical (not to mention pretentious) of me to speak for God.....to say something is or is not God's will for a person.  I'm beginning to believe the role and scope of a SD is a bit misunderstood here and in general.

Edited February 15, 2016 by Francis Clare
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[MarysLittleFlower]

Francis Clare, I hope this wouldn't be taken the wrong way but I almost see spiritual direction as two types in practice. If I were seeing a trained SD who is a lay person I'd expect to receive guidance and advice and help me sort some things out. My SD is my priest who is my confessor too and I sort of see him as my spiritual father - like in the Eastern Christian perspective. I'd ask him for permission from things and there's an element of obedience and knowing God's Will through my SD. Of course he doesn't force me to do anything and he's not like a dictotor at all. But if for example I tell him something and he agrees its from God, its like a confirmation for me. I do believe there's an element of God showing His Will through the SD. Maybe its not a popular view today I don't know but I seem to find that sort of view in the lives of the Saints? Maybe its because a priest acts in the Person of Christ in the Sacraments and already has authority, so I see him as my spiritual father. I'm not at all saying other SDs aren't important but something about it being my confessor and a priest that changes the type of direction for me. I have seen a few times God working through my SD in very unexplainable ways where he would say something or God would use something he said. Of course God can work through anyone. I hope that makes sense and doesn't sound like I'm saying that SDs who are not priests aren't SDs, - I see the direction to be different, like I said in a kind of an Eastern spiritual father sort of way

 Maybe its the books I read

[Egeria]

I think that MLF makes an important distinction between different approaches to spiritual direction, and I have noticed before that the approaches that have become popular in the West in the last half century or so are too-often presented as if they are somehow universal and timeless. As an Orthodox Christian, it would certainly be expected that one would have the blessing of one's spiritual father (and sometimes also one's bishop) before entering a monastery. So there are differences, although they are not necessarily related to ordination as there are non-ordained spiritual fathers and mothers, even if spiritual fatherhood often is linked with confession. (They're also not just East-West differences as the older western monastic tradition has much in common with the East).

However, there are also real dangers that one needs to be aware of. Firstly, the relationship between a spiritual father and child outside of the monastery are not the same as the relationship between an abbot (or monastic elder) and his monks, and it is entirely inappropriate for a spiritual father to give the sort of obediences that would be appropriate in a monastery. Anyone who tries to micro-manage his spiritual children's lives should be avoided.

Secondly, trust is incredibly important in the relationship between a spiritual father and a spiritual child. Although a spiritual father does not need to be perfect, he does need to be someone you can trust. Sadly, there are more than a few people who like to set themselves up as spiritual fathers and wreak havoc on their disciples' lives (and this is found in various traditions) or who think that priesthood automatically qualifies them for it. Some key signs of trustworthiness are humility and respecting the freedom of his spiritual children.

Thirdly, it is often difficult to find a suitable spiritual father and this is hardly new and something the Fathers wrote about centuries ago, so sometimes we have to make do with what we have. My point is that there are not necessarily clear and easy answers and relationships sometimes take on different forms. 

I'm not sure how much this helps, but I wanted to underline that there are different approaches to spiritual direction, while at the same time also agreeing that there are very real dangers. What Mary Catherine writes does also raise red flags for me, but it is difficult to say more without knowing more of the situation. And whether this is due to the potential community or to her spiritual director is also difficult to know from her words. 

 

[MarysLittleFlower]

I agree that an SD would not micro manage and would not order things the same way an abbot might. My SD is very reasonable and I never felt uncomfortable in spiritual direction or felt like anything was off. I think also maybe the type of direction described in the Saints' lives might be more similar to the Eastern way - there may be differences though 

[Nunsuch]

I just would like to say that I would feel far more comfortable with a lay or religious spiritual director who was trained in spiritual direction, than with a priest who was not. Ordination doesn't automatically qualify one to be a spiritual director. [Please note: I used to work closely with a spiritual director who was a priest, so don't think I am critical or hostile to priests, please!] I would listen very carefully to what Francis Clare, an experienced spiritual director, is saying. 

My concern would be that someone would take ANY spiritual direction as a source of dictation, because that then absolves the person *being* directed from responsibility for their own spiritual life and well-being. One can't abdicate responsibility to someone else. This is also true in religious life. Abbots/abbesses/superiors are also not dictators. Discernment and obedience is dialogic, not a matter of giving or taking orders. Ultimately, people must accept responsibility for their own actions, and their own spirituality. To expect someone else to take charge, whether a parent, a spiritual director, or a religious superior, is somewhat immature.

 

[Sister Leticia]

I too am a trained spiritual director. I attended a course, one day a week for 3 years. I see a supervisor, which is recommended best practice for SDs, read books and articles about this ministry and sometimes even manage to attend talks or workshops on specific themes. (And I would advise anyone looking for an SD to ask specifically about their training, supervision and ongoing personal formation)

Like Francis Clare, McM and others I am not a dictator. I accompany or guide people who are adults, and I treat them as such. I make suggestions, I reflect back what I hear them say, might even challenge them, but I am careful not to seem to be "telling" them what to do.

So I too heard all sorts of alarm bells! - about the SD's style as well as the community.

But MC - I also hear you describing yourself in very negative terms. Please don't beat yourself up, especially in this Year of Mercy. God loves you, abundantly and unconditionally and looks on you with immense love. Please try to believe that, and try to love yourself as well, even the bits that need pruning.

[Feankie]

Just to make it clear so you don't think I'm a wack-a-doodle.....my BA is in theology, MA in pastoral theology, D,Min. in applied ministry, and a 3 year certified course in spiritual direction.  I also see a SD myself, and when studying to be  a SD, we had to see diirectees and then give a verbatim (with permission, of course) of our sessions to a certified SD (Supervisor) to critique us.  This last step went on for our entire 3rd year.