Orthodox Vocations

[padua01]

Hi everyone,

I was hoping someone could help me with a conundrum I'm having, name reconciling the idea of the people in the Orthodox Church sensing and pursuing a call to be monks or nuns and the Catholic Church's teaching on "No Salvation Outside the Catholic Church". Now there are many incorrect interpretations of this teaching but after reading Tim Staple's explanation (http://www.catholic.com/blog/tim-sta...atholic-church), I think I have a pretty firm grasp of it - namely, that, while non-Catholics can be saved, it is only if they are invincibly ignorant and if they have an implicit desire to join the Catholic Church which is animated by perfect charity.

I guess what I'm struggling with is, if the Orthodox Church is not the true Church, then does God really call these young men and women to leave the world and join monasteries or convents not in communion with the Pope? And if they don't meet the stringent requirements for salvation outlined by Tim Staples, will they really not be saved despite enduring a life of penance and self-denial motivated by love of God? On the flip side, if God doesn't call these people to be monks or nuns, then is what they perceive to be a call from God merely their own desire? What about those who feel called but are not attracted to the life and still join out of obedience - surely, in these cases, it's more than just something they wake up and decide to do one day?

My main point of confusion is, if God doesn't call young men and women to Orthodox monasteries and convents, then how can a young Catholic man or woman, who feels the exact same sense of being called to a Catholic religious order as the Orthodox do to Orthodox orders, really know it's a supernatural call that they, themselves, are feeling? 

I hope that this all somewhat makes sense. This is from someone who is considering a monastic vocation but who is also struggling with his faith a bit. I'm just terrified of leaving the world and shutting myself up in a monastery for something that was never a vocation to begin with and just my own paranoia or inner struggles.

[Gabriela]

The personal issue you mention is something that I think can be discussed in the VS. I'm sure others have advice on that. But the question of salvation outside the Church should be moved to the Q&A board. Can we get a Mediator of Meh in here to move the question? @beatitude, maybe? Or @Ice_nine?

[MarysLittleFlower]

I think I see what you mean.... It might help to consider two points: God always tries to draw people closer to Himself, and the Church, and graces to non Catholics still come through the Church. Maybe the person is ignorant. Maybe they're not at the point of understanding enough. Maybe being so generous with God would help them to grow in charity and thus receive more graces which still come through the Church, and thus maybe come closer to the Church too. In the end this is something we don't know well because we don't know always the reasons things happen or why God might do/allow something. But their response in being religious is a generous desire for God and in case of the Orthodox, they have the Sacraments so they have access to way more grace than Protestants for example. This is still through the Church and its very important to be in union with the Church. But maybe for some the prayer and Rule of the monastery would help them to grow in their dispositions, which we all need for God's Will. They could have more charity which could lead to at least an implicit desire to be in union with the Church or even joining it if given that knowledge. God uses everything - He can use anything for good.

In the end though this is all guessing! Theres one other thing that I hope would help with the anxiety you might feel on the question. Wanting God IS a grace. If they want God more through religious life, that is a grace they received through the Church. As I suggested God could use this grace to give them more further graces later. Try not to be so anxious about your discernment. I get anxious too but it actually blocks many graces to our souls when we do that - we block God out. He is found in peace. if you have a desire to give yourself more fully to God, that is a love and generosity towards Him, and He can use that. If its your vocation you'll know when the community accepts you and you make your vows. That would be a confirmation of the call. So you won't have to live as a religious in fear that you did the wrong thing. If you make your vows then that is a confirmation that this is good. Meanwhile - be generous with God and seek His Will, try to lessen your own self will as much as you can. God bless you

Edited February 11, 2016 by MarysLittleFlower

[veritasluxmea]

No salvation outside the Church means that people outside the Church who are saved are saved through the Church. For example, let's say a bible-believing Lutheran grannie who grew up in the Bible belt and never really encountered Catholicism still loved Jesus with her whole life, prayed everyday, and truly tried to follow the Lord one day dies at a ripe old age and is saved. She's saved through Jesus- how did she come to know Jesus? Through the bible, written by the Church, and oral tradition, passed on from the early days of the Church, through the Christian Faith- passed on from the heart of the Church. Although for her it was diluted by Lutheranism, still, it's Christianity. I like to think of it as Jesus moving through the threads of truth (sacraments, bible, moral teachings, ect) in each religion. If you're far away, the threads are weak- if you're close, they're stronger. And the root of all threads is Jesus himself, given to us in the Church. It's possible for Jesus to reach you before death on a very weak thread, so weak you don't even know it's him. 

So, Orthodox are still connected the Jesus, to the Real Faith, even closer than Lutheranism. I think they have valid sacraments and even the Real Presence in the Eucharist. So yes, through their Faith they do have "real" vocations. I'm no expert, but although there's a separation I think they're still considered part of the Catholic Faith? If you're struggling between the Orthodox and Catholic Faith, consider that the Greek Church wrote and used a hymn acknowledging Papal supremacy before the schism (documented in the liturgical encyclopedia). 

Sorry for the rough writing! Hope that helps. 

[MarysLittleFlower]

They do have all 7 Sacraments..though I've never heard of them described as part of the Catholic faith. They have much in common though - more than any others.

I think the whole thing with salvation and the Church is that some might truly be invincibly ignorant of what they need to know to consider the Church - things like that. In that case they're not wilfully rejecting the Church as long as their ignorance is not culpable. Others are maybe progressing nearer the Church and maybe dont even realize it yet. It may take decades, a whole life. The issue is we can't say for SURE who is ignorant or knowledgeable to what degree, let alone culpable. There are many factors known only to God so we don't decide others salvation only pray for them. Just some general comments

Even if invincible ignorance is not common we simply don't know about particular people. 

What we can't say is that as a group non Catholics are saved - I think that's one of the condemned views in an encyclical or Syllabus of Errors. However specific people we really leave to God, and we need to pray for them because some things only happen through prayer. 

[padua01]

38 minutes ago, veritasluxmea said:

No salvation outside the Church means that people outside the Church who are saved are saved through the Church. For example, let's say a bible-believing Lutheran grannie who grew up in the Bible belt and never really encountered Catholicism still loved Jesus with her whole life, prayed everyday, and truly tried to follow the Lord one day dies at a ripe old age and is saved. She's saved through Jesus- how did she come to know Jesus? Through the bible, written by the Church, and oral tradition, passed on from the early days of the Church, through the Christian Faith- passed on from the heart of the Church. Although for her it was diluted by Lutheranism, still, it's Christianity. I like to think of it as Jesus moving through the threads of truth (sacraments, bible, moral teachings, ect) in each religion. If you're far away, the threads are weak- if you're close, they're stronger. And the root of all threads is Jesus himself, given to us in the Church. It's possible for Jesus to reach you before death on a very weak thread, so weak you don't even know it's him. 

So, Orthodox are still connected the Jesus, to the Real Faith, even closer than Lutheranism. I think they have valid sacraments and even the Real Presence in the Eucharist. So yes, through their Faith they do have "real" vocations. I'm no expert, but although there's a separation I think they're still considered part of the Catholic Faith? If you're struggling between the Orthodox and Catholic Faith, consider that the Greek Church wrote and used a hymn acknowledging Papal supremacy before the schism (documented in the liturgical encyclopedia). 

Sorry for the rough writing! Hope that helps. 

Thank you for your answer. However, I just want to clarify that I am not struggling with the concept of No Salvation Outside the Catholic Church - I think I have a firm grasp of it. What I don't understand is how one can reconcile that with an Orthodox religious vocation. How can calling someone from the world, to live in a monastery where their chances of learning more about Catholicism are virtually non-existent since they will be immersed in Orthodox theology every day for the rest of their lives (be it in the Liturgy, their literature, talks traditions, etc.)? If these young people feel like they're being called (yet the Catholic Church's teachings implies that this wouldn't really make sense since God does not call people outside of union with the true Church) then how on earth can I know if what I'm experiencing is a call from God, if there are Orthodox who feel the exact same "calling"? 

I am not struggling between which of the 2 Churches is correct - if any of them is correct, I know it's Catholicism. But this conundrum I'm facing is scandalizing me and leading me to despair. I feel as if I won't have peace and true conviction no matter what I do. I am earnestly hoping that someone can give me an answer to explain, what I perceive to be, a contradiction or at the very least, a great mystery.

[MarysLittleFlower]

I think I actually heard of an Orthodox monk from Mount Athos becoming Catholic. Keep in mind their liturgy and traditions are the same as Eastern Catholics. Its only the doctrinal part that changes regarding some points. My idea was that a life of prayer and sacrifice can dispose them to greater charity to God which would lead them closer to God's Will in ways and maybe at least an implicit desire for the Church. Its true also for Catholics though we are already Catholic - but religious life helps to grow in charity and submission to God's Will. Any graces they receive are still through the Church and can lead to the Church.

Basically I don't see their desire to serve God as religious as a call to not be Catholic because religious life has its origin in the Church. Its not like they see their vocation as rejecting Catholicism. They just want to seek to love God, which could be a grace through the Church, leading them closer to God and the Church. Maybe that monk who became Catholic would not have felt drawn to Catholicism without all the prayer and silence of his monastery. Their traditions are not heretical, and are shared by the Eastern Catholics. There's disagreement on doctrines rather.

Bottom line - God can use anything! He can call a person to one place to later call them to another place. Actual graces are like steps in a ladder maybe. Without one you wouldn't reach another as easily. Maybe without being religious they'd have a lower not a higher chance of being Catholic. Its difficult to earnestly seek God's Will with a distracted mind and a heart attached to the world and sadly if we don't oppose the world we become like that. Leaving the world could lead a person to the Church - I don't know, God knows. I think it could help you to trustfully surrender this issue to God and make acts of trust in Him that He would lead you in your discernment. If a community accepts you that would confirm a call. Before that, no one knows for sure and that's ok. trust!

You are maybe looking for a certainty now but no one here has that certainty until they take their vows. This is a time to.learn to trust God, and we learn this when its difficult :) if you had assurance now there wouldn't be this beautiful opportunity to make an act of surrender to God. In the end this act could contribute much more to your sanctification than if you had certainty that you wish for. Maybe certainty would mean a surer success but success is not up to us, but God. In the end what matters is if you will become holier. Trust in uncertainty would be very pleasing to God and maybe prepare you for your vocation much more than if you knew for sure. Don't seek certainty, but God's Will through trust :) desire for certainty comes from distrust. God is always the same Father and takes care of us, today and tomorrow. Before the creation of the world, there was only this incomprehensible life of the Blessed Trinity.. Think of the peace of God. He knows everything, and we don't need to have any certainty, rather seek Him and be generous... He will do the rest, - do you think He would abandon someone who is afraid of making a mistake in serving Him? :) just some thoughts!

Edited February 11, 2016 by MarysLittleFlower

[Feankie]

Where is Marigold when we need her?  Oh wait! She's in the Orthodox Monastery

[MarysLittleFlower]

Here's a prayer that St Claude De la Colombiere wrote that really helped me

My God, I believe most firmly that Thou watchest over all who hope in Thee, and that we can want for nothing when we rely upon Thee in all things; therefore I am resolved for the future to have no anxieties, and to cast all my cares upon Thee.
People may deprive me of worldly goods and of honors; sickness may take from me my strength and the means of serving Thee; I may even lose Thy grace by sin; but my trust shall never leave me. I will preserve it to the last moment of my life, and the powers of hell shall seek in vain to wrestle it from me.

Let others seek happiness in their wealth, in their talents; let them trust to the purity of their lives, the severity of their mortifications, to the number of their good works, the fervor of their prayers; as for me, O my God, in my very confidence lies all my hope. “For Thou, O Lord, singularly has settled me in hope.” This confidence can never be in vain. “No one has hoped in the Lord and has been confounded.”

I am assured, therefore, of my eternal happiness, for I firmly hope for it, and all my hope is in Thee. “In Thee, O Lord, I have hoped; let me never be confounded.”

I know, alas! I know but too well that I am frail and changable; I know the power of temptation against the strongest virtue. I have seen stars fall from heaven, and pillars of firmament totter; but these things alarm me not. While I hope in Thee I am sheltered from all misfortune, and I am sure that my trust shall endure, for I rely upon Thee to sustain this unfailing hope.

Finally, I know that my confidence cannot exceed Thy bounty, and that I shall never receive less than I have hoped for from Thee. Therefore I hope that Thou wilt sustain me against my evil inclinations; that Thou wilt protect me against the most furious assults of the evil one, and that Thou wilt cause my weakness to triumph over my most powerful enemies. I hope that Thou wilt never cease to love me, and that I shall love Thee unceasingly. “In Thee, O Lord, have I hoped; let me never be confounded.”

Above all things I am resigned to be sanctified by the way that God shall please, by the absence of all sensible delight, if He wishes it so to be, by interior trials, by continual combat with my passions.”

Sorry for the formatting!

http://www.discerninghearts.com/catholic-podcasts/prayer-of-saint-claude-de-la-colombiere/

[krissylou]

There are some saints recognized by the Catholic Church who lived and died not in communion with Rome.

Most notably, Gregory of Narek was named Doctor of the Church about a year ago.  He lived and died a monk of the Armenian Apostolic Church, which is Oriental Orthodox (not Eastern Orthodox).  The Oriental Orthodox churches split off after the Council of Chalcedon.  I'm too lazy to look up dates right about now but call that about year 500.  (The dispute was a very technical one about how you describe the relationship between the human and divine natures in Christ.  John Paul II and the relevant patriarch came out with a joint declaration in the early 1990s saying that this should not be considered a church-dividing issue.)

Okay so the churches split somewhere about year 500.  Gregory of Narek lived around the year 1000, not in communion with either Rome nor Constantinople.  In the 19th century, a branch of the Armenian church became an Eastern Catholic church, in communion with Rome.  When that happens you can bring your old saints along with you.  So that's what happened with Gregory.  There are other recognized saints in this sort of category (I've heard mention of Isaac the Syrian) but there are so many saints they can get lost in the shuffle.  With the drastically fewer numbers of Doctors of the Church, Gregory of Narek stands out more.

But if there are recognized canonized saints who were not in communion with Rome during their lifetime (and there are) I think God can work just fine within Orthodox monasteries.  He's a flexible kind of God.  (Still recognizing that the split is a terrible thing and we should all be praying for its healing.)

[veritasluxmea]

On 2/10/2016, 7:59:04, padua01 said:

Thank you for your answer. However, I just want to clarify that I am not struggling with the concept of No Salvation Outside the Catholic Church - I think I have a firm grasp of it. What I don't understand is how one can reconcile that with an Orthodox religious vocation. How can calling someone from the world, to live in a monastery where their chances of learning more about Catholicism are virtually non-existent since they will be immersed in Orthodox theology every day for the rest of their lives (be it in the Liturgy, their literature, talks traditions, etc.)? If these young people feel like they're being called (yet the Catholic Church's teachings implies that this wouldn't really make sense since God does not call people outside of union with the true Church) then how on earth can I know if what I'm experiencing is a call from God, if there are Orthodox who feel the exact same "calling"? 

I am not struggling between which of the 2 Churches is correct - if any of them is correct, I know it's Catholicism. But this conundrum I'm facing is scandalizing me and leading me to despair. I feel as if I won't have peace and true conviction no matter what I do. I am earnestly hoping that someone can give me an answer to explain, what I perceive to be, a contradiction or at the very least, a great mystery.

Oh, I think I understand a little what you're saying. I've been through somewhat similar struggles on some issues. I can tell you from experience probably nothing you read on the internet will resolve the difficulties you have. I can explain to you as best I can how it's not a contradiction, but ultimately it's something you have to understand and internalize yourself. I hope what I write helps, but please consider just taking the time this lent to pray in adoration and ask to face what's causing you trouble- that's what I would do in your situation. I'll pray for you too. 

First of all, God does call and inspire and console people outside of Catholicism. He is always trying to bring people to holiness, whatever their religion. It's just harder to hear His voice without His closeness in the Eucharist and Faith, but it does happen. Again, think of how the treads of Truth are there for Him to reach out to people. 

As to the fact that living in an Orthodox monastery will limit your likelihood of converting to Catholicism, look at is this way. Why doesn't God call/inspire the Baptists living in the 1800's deep south to move to say, New York where they are likely in encounter the Faith? Because it's just not practical or His will for them to live their lives. God's not going to be unreasonable and guide thousands of people away from their homes and families and society. He will try to reach them where they are, within their knowledge of Him, and guide them as best he can, provided they try and keep listening to their conscience. God's not going to ask all the Russian and Ukrainian men and women who are inspired to live fully for him to uproot their lives and move to Italy. If someone doesn't accept or encounter the Catholic Faith for whatever reason, but is still willing to listen to God and follow Him, He will accept what they offer him, where they can offer it to Him. He is very generous that way. 

tl;dr God does inspire and call people outside of the Roman Catholic Church (there are non-Roman Catholic saints) and He will accept what they can give Him. 

Hope that helps, have a good lent. 

Edited February 12, 2016 by veritasluxmea

[MarysLittleFlower]

I think it makes sense that God reaches us where we are. Some may also receive more graces or more knowledge than others. 

We are of course only responsible for what we know provided our ignorance has not been culpable. Sometimes people have barely any contact with Catholicism but still end up being drawn to it. God uses everything

[padua01]

16 hours ago, veritasluxmea said:

Oh, I think I understand a little what you're saying. I've been through somewhat similar struggles on some issues. I can tell you from experience probably nothing you read on the internet will resolve the difficulties you have. I can explain to you as best I can how it's not a contradiction, but ultimately it's something you have to understand and internalize yourself. I hope what I write helps, but please consider just taking the time this lent to pray in adoration and ask to face what's causing you trouble- that's what I would do in your situation. I'll pray for you too. 

First of all, God does call and inspire and console people outside of Catholicism. He is always trying to bring people to holiness, whatever their religion. It's just harder to hear His voice without His closeness in the Eucharist and Faith, but it does happen. Again, think of how the treads of Truth are there for Him to reach out to people. 

As to the fact that living in an Orthodox monastery will limit your likelihood of converting to Catholicism, look at is this way. Why doesn't God call/inspire the Baptists living in the 1800's deep south to move to say, New York where they are likely in encounter the Faith? Because it's just not practical or His will for them to live their lives. God's not going to be unreasonable and guide thousands of people away from their homes and families and society. He will try to reach them where they are, within their knowledge of Him, and guide them as best he can, provided they try and keep listening to their conscience. God's not going to ask all the Russian and Ukrainian men and women who are inspired to live fully for him to uproot their lives and move to Italy. If someone doesn't accept or encounter the Catholic Faith for whatever reason, but is still willing to listen to God and follow Him, He will accept what they offer him, where they can offer it to Him. He is very generous that way. 

tl;dr God does inspire and call people outside of the Roman Catholic Church (there are non-Roman Catholic saints) and He will accept what they can give Him. 

Hope that helps, have a good lent. 

Ahh, thank you so much. I definitely see your perspective and, meditating on it, it makes quite a lot of sense. While I do believe that one day Christian Unity will be restored, it is also definitely unreasonable to think that in the meantime God would forsake all those Christians outside of the Catholic Church who are earnestly seeking to do His Will and live a life of virtue. I suppose that an exception would be where they, after careful study and discernment, perceive that the Catholic Church is the Church founded by Christ, would still refuse to enter it. I've also continued my research since posting this thread and have found some passages that provided me with some relief.

 

(from Pope St. John Paul II's Apostolic Exhortation Vita Consecrata)

Thanksgiving for the consecrated life

".......Consequently, although in some parts of the world Institutes of Consecrated Life seem to be experiencing a period of difficulty, in other places they are prospering with remarkable vitality. This shows that the choice of total self-giving to God in Christ is in no way incompatible with any human culture or historical situation. Nor is the consecrated life flourishing within the Catholic Church alone. In fact, it is particularly vibrant in the monasticism of the Orthodox Churches, where it is an essential feature of their life. It is also taking root or re-emerging in the Churches and Ecclesial Communities which originated in the Reformation, and is the sign of a grace shared by all of Christ's disciples. This fact is an incentive to ecumenism, which fosters the desire for an ever fuller communion between Christians, "that the world may believe" (Jn 17:21)."

 

(from Vatican II's Decree on Ecumenism Unitatis Redintegratio)

The Special Consideration of the Eastern Churches

".......These Churches, although separated from us, possess true sacraments, above all by apostolic succession, the priesthood and the Eucharist, whereby they are linked with us in closest intimacy. Therefore some worship in common (communicatio in sacris), given suitable circumstances and the approval of Church authority, is not only possible but to be encouraged. Moreover, in the East are found the riches of those spiritual traditions which are given expression especially in monastic life. There from the glorious times of the holy Fathers, monastic spirituality flourished which, then later flowed over into the Western world, and there provided the source from which Latin monastic life took its rise and has drawn fresh vigor ever since. Catholics therefore are earnestly recommended to avail themselves of the spiritual riches of the Eastern Fathers which lift up the whole man to the contemplation of the divine."

 

Thank you to everyone for your responses. I will continue to pray about this during Lent and present any of my struggles to the Lord.

Edited February 13, 2016 by padua01

[Gabriela]

@padua01, did you see this thread in the Open Mic? http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/140972-joint-declaration-of-pope-francis-and-patriarch-kirill/