Feeling Torn!

[Julie]

I know I'm still a newcomer to Phatmass, and y'all don't know me very well yet, but  I'm driving myself bonkers and could use some sympathy (or better- advice!). If I didn't have Phatmass, I'm afraid l'd start blabbing to people at school, and become one of those "look at me, I'm discerning" people. Which would be bad (obviously). So here goes.

 As time goes by, I'm feeling more and more drawn in two separate directions. It's almost like I was at the beginning of discernment  (back when I was like.. "Can't I get married and then my husband and I both go off and be monastics later? It worked for a few saints, right? Why not both? Waaaaah I wish I was in the Middle Ages." I know, not very mature.) except, rather than two totally different states of life, it's two religious communities.

On the one hand, we have the DSMME. I've always liked them, and really think it'd be swell to be one of them. I love the Dominvan order and Dominican spirituality. I LOVE that the whole community is consecrated to Jesus through Mary (my Marian consecration means very very much to me). I love their vitality and I'm really attracted to the fact that thier novitiate tends to be on the large side (I usually prefer blending into a cohort rather than boldly striking forward on my own). I'm well suited for thier apostolate (I love teaching and have taught as a summer job for years. I love study and had hazy plans of being a Philosophy or Theology professor for quite some time.) I like the fact that they don't live in groups smaller than four, that they sing the office (right now I chant Compline with some pals and I look forward to it eagerly every night.), and that they have more traditional habits with all the symbolic parts (I didn't say all of my reasons were good/not shallow.)

But on the other hand, the idea of the Parish Visitors of Mary Immaculate has been chasing me down. The idea of being used to bring people back into the Church! What could be more beautiful?! It's something like that that I've ways felt I HAD to do. And yet... I've been kind of running away from the idea. They're... not as monastic as OPs. And, I don't think they're very much given to study. And the communities are smaller, I think. They only pray two hours of the office in community, and I don't think they sing either. (Again, that's probably shallow of me. If God wants me there, I shouldn't be attached to the singing. But, I reeaaaaallllly like praying more of the office. I find it keeps my mind more consistently on God throughout the day.) Pretty much the only thing they have on the DSMME is their  beautiful, wonderful, unique apostolate. If there were some Dominicans doing that, I'd be clamoring for an application faster than you can say. "800 years." But it's enough that the idea just won't go away. Today I actually ran out of the chapel durning adoration to send them an email, sort of grumbling "fine! I'll send them a note." as I left the pew. 

Two beautiful communities dedicated to the New Evangelization. Both deeply Eucharistic with daily Holy Hour (which I don't think I'd survive very long without, since I'm pretty feeble-souled and need "FaceTime" to preserve.) Both great. And yet... I can only choose one.

It's not SO awful, since I'm trying hard to let God take care of it. I've been praying, like Solomon, for a listening heart, and I figure that He knows where He wants me. I told Him I'll go wherever, even somewhere I've never heard of, so let's kg as He helps me get there, and I'm quite sure He can do THAT in spite of my frequent outburst of ridiculousness. 

Still, it'd be nice to so SOMETHING, since I'm pretty sure the time for just sitting around and trusting has gone by. It's time to, still trusting, leap into action. Into the breach!

Please, if you have any advice, let me know. Even (or especially) "tough love", you're-being-silly advice. I'm 21, and I'm not decieved into thinking that I've reached perfect maturity. Maybe this is an example of one of my faults; or I'm focused on the wrong things. I'd really appreciate any wisdom anyone has to offer. At the very least, pray for me.

[Julie de Sales]

Hy Julie, I'm also Julie :D

I understand how you fell, I'm kind of in the same situation, from what you said it seems to me that you would prefer to enter to the DSMME, but afraid that you might be called instead to the second community. A choice like this is always difficult and we would love to know beforehand which one is the right one, but I have come to the conclusion (after a long time) that maybe we will not know until we try and enter as a member. If you were to become a postulant with the DSMME and afterwards realize that your true vocation is with the Parish Visitors of Mary Immaculate you can change congregations, no? Because sitting and scratching our heads wondering if it's the first or the second community and waiting for a sign that may never come doesn't get us very far...

From the vocation stories I have read they all seem to have received an indication of the exact community where to enter, but maybe it's not always the case. A nun once told me about a priest who, when he was discerning, he made up his mind to become a friar in a certain order, I believe it was the franciscans. The day he was supposed to leave home he went to say goodbye to his parish priest. He was not excited about the decision of this young man and told him "Don't go there, I will find you a community!" And he became a postulant in another order and professed and now is happy in his vocation. You can imagine how upset the franciscans may have been when they found out that the candidate changed his mind at the last second :D And the franciscans are very faithful and thriving, so no objective reason not to enter there.

All this to say that we have to take a leap of faith not knowing 100%. The priest in my story didn't even had a say, but he trusted his parish priest (I don't agree with the method, let's be clear, but God can work through that too  ) So you have who communities you feel drawn to. Make a choice and follow that, I don't think you will be sorry. 

[Antigonos]

Did you ever have a teacher who made a lasting and indelible impression on you?  Not "just" a teacher, but aS a person?  As a teacher you aren't just transmitting formal knowledge to kids at an impressionable age, you are a role model as well. How many religious today would, if asked, say that the experience of knowing Sister X gave them the first inkling that they themselves might have a vocation, or even spurred them to become more devout.

From what you write, I get the feeling that the DSMMEs have a very strong attraction for you.  I also think that, in an active apostolate, the amount of prayer and the quality of the spiritual life are even more important than when you are in a cloistered situation -- there are more external distractions and stresses, IMHO.  So a community which makes compromises on the amount and kind of prayer may not give you the support you need.

[MarysLittleFlower]

That's a tough one... Personally I tend to think the main thing with a Sister is not as much what she does as who she is. For that reason I try to look at the sanctification / prayer life over the apostolate and just leave that part to God. That also means that I don't have too much to advise, lol. I think if you are drawn to the second apostolate it could either be a call or you have a deep appreciation for the apostolate. Have you visited both communities? It sounds to me like you really love the Dominicans and I don't think such reasons are shallow, because I think religious life is much much more than an apostolate. But for all I know God could be calling you to either one. I don't think anyone here could tell you which one it is, but I'd encourage you to just spend time with both communities and maybe there would be a distinct sense of peace about one? Also do you have an SD?

[josephine]

visit both communities. and then, simply ask questions (in a less judging tone then im doing below  )

"how do you deal with the demands of the apostolate/ the balance prayer and work"

"how do you feel part of the new evangelisation? do you sometimes meet people on the street or is it only your students?"

 

sometimes people think that religious communities are these precious little flowers that you cannot ask hard/difficult questions to. They are not. just ask   and sometimes these things show you "dealbreakers" and that's ok. the beauty of religious life is it huge variety.

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

I know I'm being repetitive, and I know this Community is in England, but take a look at the Dominican Sisters of St. Joseph in Lymingham, England. They emphasize study (former Phatmasser Laetitia Crucis/Sister Mary Catherine) is working toward a second Bachelor's, this time in theology. And, much of their time is spent working with catechists, although they do other "teaching" type things, and other activities related to the New Evangelisation.

I'm not sure exactly how much they sing--I've never asked. But, LC plays the flute beautifully and is very musical, and I can't imagine her joining a Community where music is not important. I've also never studied the Community's horarium closely to see how many hours they devote to prayer, but I also know prayer was/is very important to LC. Their habit is basically the same as the DSMMEs.

Here is their Web link: http://www.dominicansistersofstjoseph.org/

I do admit that their chapel is not as fancy as the DSMMEs, but the Community and the congregation seem very "homelike." (Silly word, hope you get what I mean.)

 

 

Edited January 18, 2016 by IgnatiusofLoyola

[NadaTeTurbe]

You're going to change. The community is going to change. You like to sing the office, but maybe it's going to change later. The DSMME sings the office, but maybe it's going to change later (okay, it's a big maybe because they seems really musical !). The novitiate is large, yes, but you're only going to be a novice for two years (as a priest said to me, "never, never, choose an order because of their formation. Formation last 6 or 8 years. Religious life is until you die."). You like, for now, being in a "crowd", but it can change. I know that I was in boarding school, I loved living with people around me, etc... But now, I can't stand when there's more than 3 people around me. I gest lost and irritable. That's why, instead of focusing on "exterior" (wich are important !), you should focus in wich is never going to change, i.e spirituality and the heart of the apostolate. The PVMI seems to be oriented more to non-catholic, while the DSMME to strenghtening the faith with catholics (maybe I'm wrong, feel free to correct me !). Do you feel attracted to dominican charism, spirituality, family (like, can you try to do a retreat in a dominican contemplative monastery) ? Or does the life and writings of the foundress of the PVMI really resonnate in you ? 

One day, ar our vocation group, someone told us he was torned between two orders, so he was making a list of argument for every order. our priest told us "never choose with your brain ! Always choose with your heart." Maybe that rationally, one order please you more than the other, but sometimes, God likes to surprise us ! 

Anywa, prayers for you  

[katherineH]

Hi Julie! As I was reading your post, I was reminded of a part of the Essential Elements of Religious Life document by the Church: "What counts most is not what religious do, but what they are as persons consecrated to the Lord" (Message to the Plenary Assembly of the SCRIS, March 1980). Not only directly in works of announcing the Gospel but even more forcefully in the very way that they live, they should be voices that affirm with confidence and conviction: We have seen the Lord. He is risen. We have heard his word."

The apostolate is important but carrying out and praying the charism imparted to the founder/foundress of the community is the primary task of religious.  It sounds like you are attracted to who the DSMME are, and what the Parish Visitors do. There is no guarantee that you'll ever be doing one thing in religious life.  The constant is who they are and how they live.  Everything sisters do stem from their prayer life, so if you are not drawn to a community's prayers I would pay attention to that.  The Essential Elements also clearly emphasizes the place of prayer: "The first and principal duty of religious is assiduous union with God in prayer." All of that to say that regardless of how much you love an apostolate, if you are not fully in union with their prayer life I imagine you would have a hard time feeling satisfied there.

Hope this helps, and as always, visiting a community is always a great help  

[Sister Leticia]

I'm assuming you've visited both communities and spent time getting to know them - if not, you need to, as meeting them in the flesh will undoubtedly help.

As Nada has just said, Apostolates can change, locations can change, habits can change, so much can change - including you! That's why you really need to focus your discernment on that which is changeless. The DSMME could be asked to make a new foundation somewhere, but can only spare a few sisters, none of them with heavenly singing voices. The other sisters could be asked to go somewhere new and do a different type of ministry, maybe in a parish with people already in the church. You could be part of that new foundation, living very differently to how you imagined. What, in the congregation's life, spirituality and charism would sustain you then?

As others have said, the essential element of being a religious is BEING rather than DOING. That can be easier to understand when you're older - when you're young, healthy and full of zeal and energy it can be easy to focus on the apostolate because that's what you're passionate about and what you imagine you'll be doing for the next 30-40 years. But maybe you won't... for example, maybe after a few years you'll be asked to become community bursar and have to spend your time shopping, overseeing maintenance, paying bills, staring at spreadsheets etc - and watching others go forth each day on mission. What, in the congregation's life, spirituality and charism would sustain you then?

 

6 hours ago, Antigonos said:

3 hours ago, MarysLittleFlower said:

 

From what you write, I get the feeling that the DSMMEs have a very strong attraction for you.  I also think that, in an active apostolate, the amount of prayer and the quality of the spiritual life are even more important than when you are in a cloistered situation -- there are more external distractions and stresses, IMHO.  So a community which makes compromises on the amount and kind of prayer may not give you the support you need.

If a community sings/prays less than the full Office every day that doesn't mean it is compromising on its prayer. For example, from its beginnings, my congregation has never had a strong tradition of saying Office, BUT our days are centred around prolonged personal, contemplative prayer. Someone drawn to praying and praising God through Divine Office wouldn't be drawn to us, but others would, because of how they are being led in prayer. The lovely thing is that there are so many different ways of praying and different spiritualities, but one isn't objectively "better" than the other - they're only better for the individuals who feel drawn to a particular way.

(NB: I accidentally copied a quote from MLF which got embedded inside this one - in case anyone looks for the original post it was by Antigonos)

 

6 hours ago, Julie de Sales said:

A choice like this is always difficult and we would love to know beforehand which one is the right one, but I have come to the conclusion (after a long time) that maybe we will not know until we try and enter as a member. If you were to become a postulant with the DSMME and afterwards realize that your true vocation is with the Parish Visitors of Mary Immaculate you can change congregations, no? Because sitting and scratching our heads wondering if it's the first or the second community and waiting for a sign that may never come doesn't get us very far...

I've never left a congregation, but from what I've heard it can be difficult, traumatic, disorientating etc. And that's without finding a job and somewhere to live or coping with peoples' reactions, whether family and friends were supportive or unsupportive. "Changing congregations" isn't simple: the second community might well ask the discerner to wait, recover and grieve before beginning any sort of discernment with them, and they will almost certainly contact the original community for a reference. And, of course, they don't have to accept the applicant. So please don't enter one order thinking "if this doesn't work out there's always Plan B".

[Julie]

Thanks everyone. I'm going to visit the DSMME for thier vocation retreat next month, so hopefully that will shed a little clarity. I'll work on visiting the PVIVM too, maybe to avoid "what if" and maybe because that's where I belong. 

1 hour ago, NadaTeTurbe said:

You're going to change. The community is going to change. You like to sing the office, but maybe it's going to change later. The DSMME sings the office, but maybe it's going to change later (okay, it's a big maybe because they seems really musical !). The novitiate is large, yes, but you're only going to be a novice for two years (as a priest said to me, "never, never, choose an order because of their formation. Formation last 6 or 8 years. Religious life is until you die."). You like, for now, being in a "crowd", but it can change. I know that I was in boarding school, I loved living with people around me, etc... But now, I can't stand when there's more than 3 people around me. I gest lost and irritable. That's why, instead of focusing on "exterior" (wich are important !), you should focus in wich is never going to change, i.e spirituality and the heart of the apostolate. The PVMI seems to be oriented more to non-catholic, while the DSMME to strenghtening the faith with catholics (maybe I'm wrong, feel free to correct me !). Do you feel attracted to dominican charism, spirituality, family (like, can you try to do a retreat in a dominican contemplative monastery) ? Or does the life and writings of the foundress of the PVMI really resonnate in you ? 

That's sort of what I meant by calling my hesitation over the office and formation "shallow". I know that those are preferences rather than essentials. The trouble is, it's the essentials where I'm torn. I love the Dominican family and Dominican spirituality. Maybe because I'm steeped in Dominican-ness at school, studying St. Thomas with Lay Dominican professors alongside dear friends destined to be Dominican Friars, in a building named for Saint Albert, and then heading over to a chapel to hear Mass said by one of our Dominican chaplains, who happens to be my spiritual director. I head over to eat lunch in "The Dumb Ox Cafe", obviously, under paintings of more Dominicans, with people whose siblings are Dominicans. Then I go to my room and my dorm is filled with quotes from Dominican saints, random peices of paper emblazoned with the Dominican cross. Obviously most of this is just kind of decorative, but I'm living surrounded by things that shout DOMINICANS! (And I love it.) 

BUT. 

To borrow a phrase that I've only heard Protestants say, but that really applies "I have a real heart for" fallen away Catholics. I can't tell you how many speeches I've made to my poor companions- "If only they knew! If only I could go out to them! Who will go to look for people who are lost, people who wouldn't think to approach the Church on thier own?" And that is what the Parish Visitors are all about. I know that Catholic education is important too, but really the only thing that could draw me about it is that sometimes, half-fallen-away Catholics send their children to Catholic Schools, more for the education than the religion, and they can be reached that way. But... Yeah.

 

[HopefulHeart]

I'll pray for you, Julie.  I am also feeling torn between two orders, one of which is the DSMME, so reading the advice in this thread is helpful for me, too.

[MarysLittleFlower]

1 hour ago, katherineH said:

Hi Julie! As I was reading your post, I was reminded of a part of the Essential Elements of Religious Life document by the Church: "What counts most is not what religious do, but what they are as persons consecrated to the Lord" (Message to the Plenary Assembly of the SCRIS, March 1980). Not only directly in works of announcing the Gospel but even more forcefully in the very way that they live, they should be voices that affirm with confidence and conviction: We have seen the Lord. He is risen. We have heard his word."

The apostolate is important but carrying out and praying the charism imparted to the founder/foundress of the community is the primary task of religious.  It sounds like you are attracted to who the DSMME are, and what the Parish Visitors do. There is no guarantee that you'll ever be doing one thing in religious life.  The constant is who they are and how they live.  Everything sisters do stem from their prayer life, so if you are not drawn to a community's prayers I would pay attention to that.  The Essential Elements also clearly emphasizes the place of prayer: "The first and principal duty of religious is assiduous union with God in prayer." All of that to say that regardless of how much you love an apostolate, if you are not fully in union with their prayer life I imagine you would have a hard time feeling satisfied there.

Hope this helps, and as always, visiting a community is always a great help  

I think that's really true.. Apostolates are important but its the charism and who you are in relation to Our Lord that is primary. However a person might be drawn to the order God wills through the apostolate I don't know. I think the charism is something to really consider

[vee]

its normal to feel torn.  Just relax and do your school work, go on the retreat and go from there.  You are not required, as far as I know, to make any big decisions any time soon!  Right now you are investigating and observing, trying to be an impartial researcher who is looking at religious life as a possible option that God may have in mind for you.  Pray to the Holy Spirit for light, direction and strength and He will help you.  You still have to graduate, pay off any debts and so forth so try to take it easy. 

[be_thou_my_vision]

I haven't read this whole thread or anything, but I wanted to share a question I asked myself when I was discerning:

Do I see myself growing old here?

Maybe it's not a perfect question, but I guess for me it gave a bit of clarity and led me to discern with the community with whom I spent 5 years.

[Julie]

1 hour ago, vee said:

its normal to feel torn.  Just relax and do your school work, go on the retreat and go from there.  You are not required, as far as I know, to make any big decisions any time soon!  Right now you are investigating and observing, trying to be an impartial researcher who is looking at religious life as a possible option that God may have in mind for you.  Pray to the Holy Spirit for light, direction and strength and He will help you.  You still have to graduate, pay off any debts and so forth so try to take it easy. 

 

 

5 hours ago, NadaTeTurbe said:

You're going to change. The community is going to change. You like to sing the office, but maybe it's going to change later. The DSMME sings the office, but maybe it's going to change later (oka, it's a big maybe because they seems really musical !). The novitiate is large, yes, but you're only going to be a novice for two years (as a priest said to me, "never, never, choose an order because of their formation. Formation last 6 or 8 years. Religious life is until you die."). You like, for now, being in a "crowd", but it can change. I know that I was in boarding school, I loved living with people around me, etc... But now, I can't stand when there's more than 3 people around me. I gest lost and irritable. That's why, instead of focusing on "exterior" (wich are important !), you should focus in wich is never going to change, i.e spirituality and the heart of the apostolate. The PVMI seems to be oriented more to non-catholic, while the DSMME to strenghtening the faith with catholics (maybe I'm wrong, feel free to correct me !). Do you feel attracted to dominican charism, spirituality, family (like, can you try to do a retreat in a dominican contemplative monastery) ? Or does the life and writings of the foundress of the PVMI really resonnate in you ? 

 

Argh! I've typed this thrice! Ignore the weird double quoting above.

Thanks for telling me to calm down. Even though I don't expect to have much debt (my school is very generous, specifically so that graduates will be able to get married and have a bunch of kids or enter the religious life right away, without needing to worry.) I DO have a year left to graduate. And I do have a couple jobs (teaching at Catholic schools, ha!) available for the asking... so even if I DID need a year or two more to figure stuff out, I wouldn't need to worry about finding something to do. Thank you so much for reminding me that there's absolutely no reason to feel pressure, time wise.

It's kind of funny. Around here, I'm always the one calming people down. Little do people know that sometimes, even my "chill" melts a little bit. Maybe I should listen to my own "Pray, be patient, and do your duties for today." speeches.

Annnnd speaking of duties... I'd better get off Phatmass and annotate me some Summa.