Dear Father: Please Stop It

[superblue]

is there a written explanation from V2 documentation on why anyone should give two beans about any of this, other than the answer of because they said so and that is what they voted on. Because if people want to be this critical of how the mass should be said and perform the mass exactly verbatim how Christ did at the last supper, and more over receive as the disciples received which was sitting around a table, not walking up to an altar, prostrating , bowing, receiving by the mouth only.

All this is , is more dribble to divide and conquer and establish who has authority .

So if the explanation from V2 is nothing but vagueness  and can not explain the reasons behind the decisions the average layperson is not going to be able to comprehend any of it.

I do agree that it is odd if everything that is to be said is already printed for the Priest to read, why the priest can not simply just read what is in front of him, it is not a big effort to read. Less he thinks he has an amesome memory and is really old and losing it and was trying to go off of memory instead of reading. Which is really sad the process of how a priest is chosen, and how leaders are willing to ignore their own choices in selecting a priest and instead give that priest more leeway to hopefully one day correct his errors instead of just removing that priest. It would be like letting a clergy member  who has in some shape or form committed a secular crime, wait for the statue of limitations to run out, and then wait to get caught of being a participant in that crime, and then turn a blind eye to the entire thing, and go, well at least he doesn't commit liturgical abuses.

* Smurfs live there *

[truthfinder]

1 hour ago, Gabriela said:

Today at Mass the priest said, "Behold the Lamb of God, who takes away the sins and pains of the world."

I'm not even sure that's theologically accurate...

RE the Trappists standing: Is there a dispensation for religious orders? I mean, if kneeling is by order of the Bishop, then might different liturgical traditions in the religious orders make exception and so sometimes make standing the correct thing to do?

I think not, because truthfinder said "in the Latin Rite", so I'm pretty sure that covers even the religious orders. Just want to be sure...

I kept to Latin Rite because I know that for sure.  As far as I can remember, if Trappists were celebrating Mass using the Latin Rite they would be obligated to practice the postures of that rite.  I'd be tempted to say that permitting standing might be a sort of archaeological approach to liturgy; many rites such as the Carthusians actually had the members prostrate for the consecration.  And Trappists had their own form of prostration.  I know some rites kneel less or more, but iirc, none actually had no kneeling at all. 

[superblue]

17 minutes ago, truthfinder said:

I kept to Latin Rite because I know that for sure.  As far as I can remember, if Trappists were celebrating Mass using the Latin Rite they would be obligated to practice the postures of that rite.  I'd be tempted to say that permitting standing might be a sort of archaeological approach to liturgy; many rites such as the Carthusians actually had the members prostrate for the consecration.  And Trappists had their own form of prostration.  I know some rites kneel less or more, but iirc, none actually had no kneeling at all. 

 I prefer to stand for part, then kneel for 30 seconds, then I prostrate for the remainder, with one hand in the air facing the altar, I find this to be more holy.

[Amppax]

7 hours ago, truthfinder said:

Actually, you've just made me remember that at the school Masses I attended at one of my Catholic high schools, we stood for the consecration. At the other one we knelt on the hard floor. 

I don't even remember my high school masses (for whatever reason, I have a terrible memory when it comes to events in my own life). I will say this though, about 95% of students will kneel, or make a solid attempt (one knee, etc). It's mostly just the teachers that will sit, and considering some of their ages, I really don't mind. A lot of them kneel too. It's one of the perks of going to school here, if nothing else, everyone's is pretty pious. 

[truthfinder]

35 minutes ago, Amppax said:

 if nothing else, everyone's is pretty pious. 

Clearly, when we'd move our Masses to the nearest church, the priest had to remind everyone to kneel - and it was often done grudgingly by the students. 

[superblue]

36 minutes ago, Amppax said:

I don't even remember my high school masses (for whatever reason, I have a terrible memory when it comes to events in my own life). I will say this though, about 95% of students will kneel, or make a solid attempt (one knee, etc). It's mostly just the teachers that will sit, and considering some of their ages, I really don't mind. A lot of them kneel too. It's one of the perks of going to school here, if nothing else, everyone's is pretty pious. 

nooo the elderly should never be excused from church militant scrutiny, they should be forced by church militants to kneel, and if they don't the should be hit behind the knees with a leather knocker which will force them to drop to their heathen knees.

1 minute ago, truthfinder said:

Clearly, when we'd move our Masses to the nearest church, the priest had to remind everyone to kneel - and it was often done grudgingly by the students. 

Students shouldn't even be allowed in a church, that would solve that problem easily.

[bardegaulois]

To redirect to the main point again, those priests who are being disobedient to the rubrics are often doing so in the hope that the rubrics will eventually change to allow their variations. Today's news cannot but make them more proud: http://www.religionnews.com/2016/01/21/pope-francis-opens-foot-washing-rite-to-women-in-gesture-of-inclusion/

The more the Holy See does things like this, the less and less likely I am to hear an OF Mass. Gone are the days of the "reform of the reform" and "mutual enrichment," apparently.

[Anomaly]

One might as well attend a Universalist service.

I'm glad over the years Phatmass posters and others have noted the disintegration of the Catholic Church from within.  The gates were not overcome, destruction simply came from within.  

Most Catholics I know from childhood are no longer Catholic or are barely nominally practicing. It's such an unhappy organization.  Now it is further losing its inertia as it succumbs to irrelevancy and whim.   God didn't save it from the Reformation any more than Allah is going to save Islam from Sunnis and Shiites. Religion can't help but be what it always was.  

[superblue]

1 hour ago, bardegaulois said:

To redirect to the main point again, those priests who are being disobedient to the rubrics are often doing so in the hope that the rubrics will eventually change to allow their variations. Today's news cannot but make them more proud: http://www.religionnews.com/2016/01/21/pope-francis-opens-foot-washing-rite-to-women-in-gesture-of-inclusion/

The more the Holy See does things like this, the less and less likely I am to hear an OF Mass. Gone are the days of the "reform of the reform" and "mutual enrichment," apparently.

Gone are the days of expecting the Vatican to over see that the bishops are doing their job by making sure all their priests are adhering to the rubics. You really expect anything from V2 to be enforced when they can't even hold criminals in their own ranks accountable let alone remove them from power.? They care about protecting their own self perceived power and rank than they do to actually oversee that Bishops are keeping their priests inline and removing those who refuse to adhere to the rules. It isn't a complicated matter. It is just laziness and preferring to do fund raising or fluff up ones ego instead of fixing something that is broken. Bishops would rather spend time doing photo ops for their diocese website and magazines than actually take the time to do real work.  So in this topic, who in the long run is suffering? Or is it merely the Rubics that is suffering.?

[Starets]

we tend to stand rather than kneel. that is what our Prior wants. the average age of the seniors is over 80.

[tinytherese]

On January 19, 2016 at 9:18:47 AM, Gabriela said:

This raises a question for me: There's a Mass in the new place I'm in where everyone stands for the consecration. There are no kneelers, so I presume that's why. Personally, I'd rather kneel on the floor.

Is standing during the consecration technically allowed?

I don't know where it says specifically, but the GIRM does say that a bishop can ordera parish to stand during the consecration.

On another note, my former parish has a priest who replaces words in the mass with inclusive language to sound politically correct.

Edited January 22, 2016 by tinytherese

[tinytherese]

24 minutes ago, tinytherese said:

I don't know where it says specifically, but the GIRM does say that a bishop can ordera parish to stand during the consecration.

 

I found it. 

 

"43. ...In the Dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus (Holy, Holy, Holy) until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by ill health, or for reasons of lack of space, of the large number of people present, or for another reasonable cause. However, those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the Priest genuflects after the Consecration. The faithful kneel after the Agnus Dei (Lamb of God) unless the Diocesan Bishop determines otherwise."

 

 

[Nihil Obstat]

56 minutes ago, tinytherese said:

I don't know where it says specifically, but the GIRM does say that a bishop can ordera parish to stand during the consecration.

On another note, my former parish has a priest who replaces words in the mass with inclusive language to sound politically correct.

 

19 minutes ago, tinytherese said:

 

I found it. 

 

"43. ...In the Dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus (Holy, Holy, Holy) until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by ill health, or for reasons of lack of space, of the large number of people present, or for another reasonable cause. However, those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the Priest genuflects after the Consecration. The faithful kneel after the Agnus Dei (Lamb of God) unless the Diocesan Bishop determines otherwise."

 

 

That is not really what that says, then. It says there has to be a reasonable cause.

[truthfinder]

5 minutes ago, Nihil Obstat said:

 

That is not really what that says, then. It says there has to be a reasonable cause.

And lack of kneelers has never truly been considered a reasonable cause.  Or else those medievals would have never knelt...

[Peace]

Interesting thread.

There is a church I go to sometimes in DC. At some point during the liturgy they take a few minutes and ask visitors to stand up, at which point they are given a warm greeting.

Is that written in the Black or the Red? I don't think so.

But are you really going to complain about that? What are you going to say? How DARE they take 3 minutes to be welcoming to visitors?! The People of God have a RIGHT to attend Mass as it is written in the book of rules!!

That would seem a bit pharisaical to me. It would seem like the people who complained when Jesus healed people on the Sabbath.