Dear Father: Please Stop It

[truthfinder]

4 hours ago, Gabriela said:

This raises a question for me: There's a Mass in the new place I'm in where everyone stands for the consecration. There are no kneelers, so I presume that's why. Personally, I'd rather kneel on the floor.

Is standing during the consecration technically allowed?

No.  Within the Latin Rite, kneeling is to be done for the consecration (different bishop conferences will define the actual length, is it just the consecration or does it include up to the great amen). The only time kneeling can be foregone is when there is not enough room or if one is physically incapable.  There's never any rule about kneelers in the mix. 

[SilverSeminarian]

I'm in seminary. As apart of our seminarian duties, we had to go out to parishes to give talks about seminary fundraising. The parish I went to was over an hour away with an old priest celebrating mass. He didn't let me wear my cassock and surplice - he made me wear an alb. Next, he made up his own Eucharistic prayer, asked a lay person to remove the blessed sacrament from the tabernacle (she didn't genuflect), made the servers go up to the alter and hold hands during the Our Father. It was awful. I almost cried. Liturgical abuses EVERYWHERE  

[KnightofChrist]

I thought my old home parish was getting better but when took my mom to midnight mass Father Celebrant "paused" the Mass sometime before the Eucharistic prayer to invite all "visitors of different faith traditions, christian or otherwise, to pray to God as you understand him." Then there was the 'parish tradition' of asking if there was any birthdays, anniversaries, or happy news then people raised their hands announced their news there was much clapping and applause.

Edited January 20, 2016 by KnightofChrist

[Anomaly]

I can honestly say I STILL can't enter a church or attend a Mass or service without picking out the myriad things "wrong".   My wife's reports and the bulletin tell me it hasn't gotten better.  They still hold hands during the Our Father.   Oh hell naw!   LOL. 

[Amppax]

21 hours ago, truthfinder said:

No.  Within the Latin Rite, kneeling is to be done for the consecration (different bishop conferences will define the actual length, is it just the consecration or does it include up to the great amen). The only time kneeling can be foregone is when there is not enough room or if one is physically incapable.  There's never any rule about kneelers in the mix. 

Yeah, but I'd add a caveat. You're right, kneeling is normative, period. However, in cases where kneeling isn't possible (physically incapable, not enough room) standing is the correct posture. NOT sitting, as is much more commonly seen. Which, if you think about it, makes all the sense in the world. When in the presence of a king, do you sit? No, you either stand or kneel. 

[Basilisa Marie]

15 hours ago, SilverSeminarian said:

I'm in seminary. As apart of our seminarian duties, we had to go out to parishes to give talks about seminary fundraising. The parish I went to was over an hour away with an old priest celebrating mass. He didn't let me wear my cassock and surplice - he made me wear an alb. Next, he made up his own Eucharistic prayer, asked a lay person to remove the blessed sacrament from the tabernacle (she didn't genuflect), made the servers go up to the alter and hold hands during the Our Father. It was awful. I almost cried. Liturgical abuses EVERYWHERE  

Ugh awful. 

I just want to quickly point out that there isn't actually anything in the GIRM or the additional documents from the US bishops that says who is supposed to take the Eucharist out of the tabernacle. It's totally silent on the issue, unless your own bishop has defined something in your diocesan policies.  I tried searching for something to show my boss because I was uncomfortable with the practice myself, but there's nothing official, unfortunately, that says a priest must do it (unless you guys know of something and if so please please please point me at it?). And the only time it talks about genuflecting is when the priest/deacon does it during the liturgy itself, it says nothing about other ministers and such (again, same caveat - if you all can help me out...). 

 

[truthfinder]

3 minutes ago, Amppax said:

Yeah, but I'd add a caveat. You're right, kneeling is normative, period. However, in cases where kneeling isn't possible (physically incapable, not enough room) standing is the correct posture. NOT sitting, as is much more commonly seen. Which, if you think about it, makes all the sense in the world. When in the presence of a king, do you sit? No, you either stand or kneel. 

Yes indeed.  Although I've only ever seen it done once correctly, and the people also did pretty deep bows during the consecration. Most people are just too scared to stand out and thus they sit. 

[Amppax]

Just now, truthfinder said:

Yes indeed.  Although I've only ever seen it done once correctly, and the people also did pretty deep bows during the consecration. Most people are just too scared to stand out and thus they sit. 

Yes, there's several professors here who do so at our all school masses (which are unfortunately held in our gymnasium ),  but most people are too scared to stand.  

[truthfinder]

1 hour ago, Amppax said:

Yes, there's several professors here who do so at our all school masses (which are unfortunately held in our gymnasium ),  but most people are too scared to stand.  

Actually, you've just made me remember that at the school Masses I attended at one of my Catholic high schools, we stood for the consecration. At the other one we knelt on the hard floor. 

[superblue]

16 hours ago, SilverSeminarian said:

I'm in seminary. As apart of our seminarian duties, we had to go out to parishes to give talks about seminary fundraising. The parish I went to was over an hour away with an old priest celebrating mass. He didn't let me wear my cassock and surplice - he made me wear an alb. Next, he made up his own Eucharistic prayer, asked a lay person to remove the blessed sacrament from the tabernacle (she didn't genuflect), made the servers go up to the alter and hold hands during the Our Father. It was awful. I almost cried. Liturgical abuses EVERYWHERE  

well it really isn't the priest'  fault for liturgical abuses, it falls upon the Bishop to actually do his job and make sure the mass is being performed as it should be by his priests. Or at least the laypersons responsibility or even a seminarian to call it out when they see it to the priest or bishop; running online to declare yourself the most holy for spotting such abuses doesn't mean jack, and to whine about a priest not letting you wear your precious cassock and surplice ? grow up, it is his call, and he probably doesn't want your royal self looking like a priest when you are not . Which does raise the question why give seminarians a cassock and surplice in the first place if they are not allowed to wear it across the board anytime or place. Though , who ever wrote that article  probably that was originally posted, probably didn't do any more than just that; complain to everyone on the internet. Hey wouldn't it be amesome if these priests' that we all complain about one day become a Bishop, or Cardinal, orrrr even POPE ! <3

Ending liturgical abuses is a great idea, doing nothing about it other than complaining online is pointless and just self satisfying; that and the only people who know that a liturgical abuse is taking place is the priest,bishop and those who are educated enough to spot it.  That and take into consideration some priests do not have the backbone to stop certain practices that a congregation is use to, such as retrieving the Holy Eucharist from the Tabernacle. Tons of reasons why abuses happen. But you can not expect change from the ground up, not all the time. In this instance it has to start with demanding that a Bishop educates and has all his priests on the same page as he is and V2. All we can do as lay people is form a petition, and document such abuses and make the Bishop aware of the situation and ask that he fixes it.

Cell phones have recorders on them, just do a quick video recording , shouldn't be too disruptive ( not any worse than the abuse taking place ) and email it to the bishop with questions. An last question, do abuses void the mass in general ? If not, then why consider it an abuse in the first place ?

And the Church is not a " she ".

Edited January 20, 2016 by superblue

[PhuturePriest]

On 1/18/2016, 2:16:03, Credo in Deum said:

For whatever reason I can't post anything and it won't let me get rid of this quote. I am most displeased.

4 minutes ago, superblue said:

well it really isn't the priest'  fault for liturgical abuses, it falls upon the Bishop to actually do his job and make sure the mass is being performed as it should be by his priests. Or at least the laypersons responsibility or even a seminarian to call it out when they see it to the priest or bishop; running online to declare yourself the most holy for spotting such abuses doesn't mean jack, and to whine about a priest not letting you wear your precious cassock and surplice ? grow up, it is his call, and he probably doesn't want your royal self looking like a priest when you are not . Which does raise the question why give seminarians a cassock and surplice in the first place if they are not allowed to wear it across the board anytime or place. Though , who ever wrote that article  probably that was originally posted, probably didn't do any more than just that; complain to everyone on the internet. Hey wouldn't it be amesome if these priests' that we all complain about one day become a Bishop, or Cardinal, orrrr even POPE ! <3

Ending liturgical abuses is a great idea, doing nothing about it other than complaining online is pointless and just self satisfying; that and the only people who know that a liturgical abuse is taking place is the priest,bishop and those who are educated enough to spot it.  That and take into consideration some priests do not have the backbone to stop certain practices that a congregation is use to, such as retrieving the Holy Eucharist from the Tabernacle. Tons of reasons why abuses happen. But you can not expect change from the ground up, not all the time. In this instance it has to start with demanding that a Bishop educates and has all his priests on the same page as he is and V2. All we can do as lay people is form a petition, and document such abuses and make the Bishop aware of the situation and ask that he fixes it.

Cell phones have recorders on them, just do a quick video recording , shouldn't be too disruptive ( not any worse than the abuse taking place ) and email it to the bishop with questions. An last question, do abuses void the mass in general ? If not, then why consider it an abuse in the first place ?

And the Church is not a " she ".

Now that my previous post issue has been solved...

I think you need to calm down, as you're being very uncharitable. 

Also, it is "Holy Mother Church", so yes, the Church is a "she". Even Pope Francis commented on this a short while ago.

[Not A Real Name]

Anyone else like how the OP started this thread and then disappeared? lol

Well played, enitharmon. Well played. 

[PhuturePriest]

2 minutes ago, Not A Real Name said:

Anyone else like how the OP started this thread and then disappeared? lol

Well played, enitharmon. Well played. 

Clearly he/she is the wisest among us.

[enitharmon]

1 hour ago, Not A Real Name said:

Anyone else like how the OP started this thread and then disappeared? lol

Well played, enitharmon. Well played.

You're welcome. I aim to please
 

[Gabriela]

Today at Mass the priest said, "Behold the Lamb of God, who takes away the sins and pains of the world."

I'm not even sure that's theologically accurate...

RE the Trappists standing: Is there a dispensation for religious orders? I mean, if kneeling is by order of the Bishop, then might different liturgical traditions in the religious orders make exception and so sometimes make standing the correct thing to do?

I think not, because truthfinder said "in the Latin Rite", so I'm pretty sure that covers even the religious orders. Just want to be sure...