Dear Father: Please Stop It

[bardegaulois]

1 hour ago, PhuturePriest said:

I already said I respect those who get too distracted at the Novus Ordo.

Perhaps where you live, which I know is notorious for its... interesting Masses. But even in my old diocese with apathetic priests and questionable theology, the Masses were mostly fine and reverent. My current diocese has excellent Masses as far as the eye can see, even though Latin is not present in most of them. I suppose I need you to explain what you mean exactly by most OF Masses having priests who turn them into shows.

To be fair, oftentimes it isn't the priest turning it into a show; it's certain parishioners. The priest is often just a pushover. Nope, it's the untrained vocalist warbling out off-key Marty Haugen earworms; the folk group with the guitar that insists on sitting at the front of the church, the leader of whom is far too effusive in his welcomes over the often unnecessary microphone at the beginning; the melodramatic lector; the mothers who insist that their inept children have the right to serve the altar or to do liturgical dance. The priest, in tolerating this, of course, shares the responsibility here, but I wonder if they weren't teaching priests in the seminary in the bad old days just to acquiesce to the loudest members of the congregation, because that's the anointed of the Holy Spirit or some other like hokum.

In a parish like that, not only is the liturgy godawful, but there's utterly no sense of finding any sort of community. Thus, I just stay away and let the Boomers have their party.

[Credo in Deum]

1 hour ago, PhuturePriest said:

I already said I respect those who get too distracted at the Novus Ordo.

Perhaps where you live, which I know is notorious for its... interesting Masses. But even in my old diocese with apathetic priests and questionable theology, the Masses were mostly fine and reverent. My current diocese has excellent Masses as far as the eye can see, even though Latin is not present in most of them. I suppose I need you to explain what you mean exactly by most OF Masses having priests who turn them into shows.

A priest turns the liturgy into a show when he inserts himself into the liturgy,  like his preferences, his own made up prayers, or his own "style" into the mass.  I look at this as the priest turning the Mass into a show.  One which is almost always defended under the battle cry "fostering community" blah blah blah.

[PhuturePriest]

1 minute ago, bardegaulois said:

To be fair, oftentimes it isn't the priest turning it into a show; it's certain parishioners. The priest is often just a pushover. Nope, it's the untrained vocalist warbling out off-key Marty Haugen earworms; the folk group with the guitar that insists on sitting at the front of the church, the leader of whom is far too effusive in his welcomes over the often unnecessary microphone at the beginning; the melodramatic lector; the mothers who insist that their inept children have the right to serve the altar or to do liturgical dance. The priest, in tolerating this, of course, shares the responsibility here, but I wonder if they weren't teaching priests in the seminary in the bad old days just to acquiesce to the loudest members of the congregation, because that's the anointed of the Holy Spirit or some other like hokum.

In a parish like that, not only is the liturgy godawful, but there's utterly no sense of finding any sort of community. Thus, I just stay away and let the Boomers have their party.

Sure. I'm simply saying many make blanket statements, saying all or most OF parishes are like this. This simply hasn't been my experience, and I've been to Mass in about 30 States. Even in the most irreverent of liturgies, I have never witnessed liturgical dancing. I have never witnessed Masses which have more in common with raves than Calvary. I have never seen a clown Mass or even a guy who knows a guy who knows a guy who went to a clown Mass. I have no doubt those things have existed and in some isolated places still exist. But I have noticed older devout people tend to complain about these things more than devout young people, which has led me to believe older devout people are complaining about problems that persisted in their day and not in the modern day. It is (Thank the Lord almighty) no longer 1976, and the priests and seminarians of my generation are incredibly faithful and orthodox, as are the devout laypeople.

[Credo in Deum]

11 minutes ago, PhuturePriest said:

Sure. I'm simply saying many make blanket statements, saying all or most OF parishes are like this. This simply hasn't been my experience, and I've been to Mass in about 30 States. Even in the most irreverent of liturgies, I have never witnessed liturgical dancing. I have never witnessed Masses which have more in common with raves than Calvary. I have never seen a clown Mass or even a guy who knows a guy who knows a guy who went to a clown Mass. I have no doubt those things have existed and in some isolated places still exist. But I have noticed older devout people tend to complain about these things more than devout young people, which has led me to believe older devout people are complaining about problems that persisted in their day and not in the modern day. It is (Thank the Lord almighty) no longer 1976, and the priests and seminarians of my generation are incredibly faithful and orthodox, as are the devout laypeople.

You're right I should have said "Its been my experience" so mea culpa.

[Papist]

2 hours ago, Credo in Deum said:

More like simply attend a mass which is reverent and one where the priest hasn't made it his own show.  Also attend a mass that preserves the liturgical traditions which Holy Mother Church has loved and contiues to love. It's not like these things cannot be done in the OF, it's just a sad reality that it's hardly ever done in the OF. 

My point is, simply attending the EF mass does not necessarily improve one's situation.  All it does is make it so he does not recognize any alterations. Ignorance is bliss. Back in the day when I was ignorant of the liturgical norms, I enjoyed OF mass most every where I attended. By now that I ain't so ignorant, it is very distracting when I recognize norms not adhered to.  I do encourage people to attend EF, not to get away from the OF, but rather to participate in the beauty and richness of the EF.  I am blessed to have both OF and EF that do not contain such distractions.  We still have those that are not "norm"al, but those parishes are fading away as the pastors(priests) of such are retiring. Our diocese is producing great priests who seem to have a love for tradition. 

[Starets]

I've been to a Chrysostom mass where there was ad-libbing so I don't think the problem is with the OF

[vee]

In the article he is simply asking priests to stop things that are liturgical abuses yes but it may not be that simple as quitting cold turkey.  I am certainly not defending liturgical abuses, I cant stand them, but when did it start for each priest?  Did he think it was ok growing up?  Did he learn such things in seminary?  Is he feeling forced or given the ok by his bishop, parishoners etc?  Has he lapsed in his prayer life, breviary, devotion to Mary etc?  Finding and treating the cause helps prevent it from happening.  Priests are still men and it doesnt matter which Mass they celebrate their hearts can still grow cold, worldly and even wicked.

[bardegaulois]

53 minutes ago, vee said:

In the article he is simply asking priests to stop things that are liturgical abuses yes but it may not be that simple as quitting cold turkey.  I am certainly not defending liturgical abuses, I cant stand them, but when did it start for each priest?  Did he think it was ok growing up?  Did he learn such things in seminary?  Is he feeling forced or given the ok by his bishop, parishoners etc?  Has he lapsed in his prayer life, breviary, devotion to Mary etc?  Finding and treating the cause helps prevent it from happening.  Priests are still men and it doesnt matter which Mass they celebrate their hearts can still grow cold, worldly and even wicked.

Yes. It's his fault, and it's all of our faults for requesting or even tolerating irreverent liturgy. It's not a matter of a reverent clergy against a worldly laity nor of a worldly clergy against a reverent laity. I've seen the Catholic Church polarizing extensively with the more reverent going one way and the more worldly going another within our lifetimes, and yet we are must meet each other and when we meet, sparks fly, I stated earlier that it's often not the priests, but the laymen who compel their near-sacrilegious liturgical style far away in in my own little island. Can it be brought together again, or are have we plunged into a headlong "silent schism?"

[truthfinder]

5 hours ago, Papist said:

My point is, simply attending the EF mass does not necessarily improve one's situation.  All it does is make it so he does not recognize any alterations. Ignorance is bliss. Back in the day when I was ignorant of the liturgical norms, I enjoyed OF mass most every where I attended. By now that I ain't so ignorant, it is very distracting when I recognize norms not adhered to.  I do encourage people to attend EF, not to get away from the OF, but rather to participate in the beauty and richness of the EF.  I am blessed to have both OF and EF that do not contain such distractions.  We still have those that are not "norm"al, but those parishes are fading away as the pastors(priests) of such are retiring. Our diocese is producing great priests who seem to have a love for tradition. 

Well, I've been to EFs where, usually accidental or sometimes through weird custom, they actually weren't following the rubrics: facing different directions, not doffing the biretta at the Holy Name, not reciting any additional collects.  So,no, we won't hear everything, but they still can make mistakes, and sometimes they're accidental sometimes not, but I'm a whole lot calmer about it. 

1 hour ago, vee said:

In the article he is simply asking priests to stop things that are liturgical abuses yes but it may not be that simple as quitting cold turkey.  I am certainly not defending liturgical abuses, I cant stand them, but when did it start for each priest?  Did he think it was ok growing up?  Did he learn such things in seminary?  Is he feeling forced or given the ok by his bishop, parishoners etc?  Has he lapsed in his prayer life, breviary, devotion to Mary etc?  Finding and treating the cause helps prevent it from happening.  Priests are still men and it doesnt matter which Mass they celebrate their hearts can still grow cold, worldly and even wicked.

Anecdotally, I've heard some instances of it being encouraged in the seminary, but also by pastors when they were associates.  Especially in the more experimental time, priests would certainly be praised on their ability to make stuff up, usually by parishioners, but also by clergy. 

Devotion to the breviary is such an important thing - in Priests for the Third Millennium, it discusses that stopping praying the breviary will usually be the start of many other abuses.  (I love the sight of a priest praying his breviary.) This might go back to formation as well.  How does the seminary portray the praying of the breviary; what is the community practice of praying it; do they form the priests to be attentive to it when they're on their own? 

[Gabriela]

This raises a question for me: There's a Mass in the new place I'm in where everyone stands for the consecration. There are no kneelers, so I presume that's why. Personally, I'd rather kneel on the floor.

Is standing during the consecration technically allowed?

[dominicansoul]

On ‎1‎/‎17‎/‎2016‎ ‎10‎:‎20‎:‎57‎, PhuturePriest said:

That really was the main issue for me when I was becoming obsessed with liturgy. I think traditionalists run a risk of becoming snobbish and (as you say) prideful when it comes to liturgy. At least that was my experience, anyway. When I focused less on the specifics of the Liturgy and stopped watching everything Father and the altar boys did like an inquisitor, I became much more prayerful in the Mass. My personal motto is to just try and be grateful to God for the Mass, no matter what form, no matter how beautiful, and no matter how irreverent. An irreverent Mass still gives me the gift of praying in the presence of angels and receiving God himself. 

It happens on both sides of the spectrum.  I grew up with prideful arrogant liberal disobedient morons who acted like God didn't matter when it came to Liturgy, what mattered more were their own ideas of spiritual freedom and liberty and doing what they felt was more important than Church teachings and using the Mass for their own self gratifying humanist's philosophy...

 

Yes there's a danger of becoming too bogged down with watching the liturgy like a hawk, but in this day and age we live in (and where some of us come from ie. growing up in the earliest years after Vatican II,) we pretty much had to become guardians of our Faith... at least I feel I've been forced to do this even to this day.  The only Novus Ordo Masses I've ever attended where there was absolutely no liturgical abuse was in the convent.  I have to say, that's pretty sad...

[Julie]

On January 17, 2016 at 8:20:57 PM, PhuturePriest said:

That really was the main issue for me when I was becoming obsessed with liturgy. I think traditionalists run a risk of becoming snobbish and (as you say) prideful when it comes to liturgy. At least that was my experience, anyway. When I focused less on the specifics of the Liturgy and stopped watching everything Father and the altar boys did like an inquisitor, I became much more prayerful in the Mass. My personal motto is to just try and be grateful to God for the Mass, no matter what form, no matter how beautiful, and no matter how irreverent. An irreverent Mass still gives me the gift of praying in the presence of angels and receiving God himself. 

Exactly.

I remember going bonkers in the pew because of three tiny little things- one of which I don't think was even changing the Liturgy- it was just weird:

1) Father said "peace be with EACH of you ALWAYS"

2) Before the Our Father, instead of saying "Informed by divine teaching, we dare to say" (I'm like 90% sure... It's something like that. I haven't heard the English translation of the real words in years. But I know there's definately a "We have the audacity to be calling God 'Our Father' because Christ tells us to!"  vibe.) Anyways, he says something like "And now, let's say our family prayer."  I don't think I'd even notice, except that as a child I heard a homily preached about the actual words, and I've loved them ever since.

3) For some reason, we repeat the names of the sick people during the prayers of the faithful. So it's like this, lector: "and for those who are sick, especially Maria Lopez,"  everyone: "Maria" lector: "Joachim Onekuru" everyone: "Joachim" lector: "and Siobhan O'Hara" everyone "erm... Siobhan". I don't think this is wrong, but it's still weird.

 

 

ANYWAYS, that isn't the point. The point was that I let these tiny little errors take over the Mass: anticipating them before, wincing during, and grumbling during. Thinking uncharitably of Father, even as I prayed that peace would be with his spirit! There was definately some pride and self righteousness going on. It almost became a habit. For a while, I had to exert a lot of effort, reminding myself over and over "This is the Mass. Jesus is going to be right there on that altar in a minute, and then Father is going to carry Jesus down from the altar and put Him in my mouth. How could I possibly be grumbling at Father over a word!"  It took a lot of doing, and I still have to give myself a little pep talk when I go back home from school, though more because of a shock to the senses than because anything is wrong. "It's still the Mass, even if the music and church aren't as pretty and it doesn't smell nicely of incense. Those things are not the point."

Obviously, I'm a weak, sensual person, but at least, by the grace of God,  I'm better off than when I was on the road to becoming a holier-than-thou, hypocritical pharasree. 

 

*And I'm not even a "traddie"! I remember leaning in that direction, and being very excited about the daily EF at school, but... I actually prefer the OF. I choose it six days a week, and only go to the EF at all because my schedule on Thrusdays doesn't allow for any of three OF Masses. I even wish that we would sometimes have the OF in English (even though I enough Latin to follow along).  I wasn't a "traddie" but I was still a snobby liturgical stickler. It's right and good that we use the proper liturgy. It's not right to have a terribly attitude about it.

On January 17, 2016 at 8:20:57 PM, PhuturePriest said:

 

That said, there are still liturgical abuses. It's not just a memory from the "bad old days". I myself was a barefoot liturgical dancer, holding a clay bowl of incense (which burned my hands!) and sashaying around the altar in middle school (less than ten years ago!). I myself have been a child, in costume, in the sanctuary, acting out the Gospel as Father read it from down in the midst of the sanctuary, and things like that.

But that is nowhere near the norm. That parish was the exception. Just like that parish school was the exception, and most Catholic schools do not make children read the Bible after school as a "punishment" for dropping a crayon. 

[Cam42]

I know that this may be beating a dead horse, but who cares, I like using a big stick.

We, the faithful have a right, as defined in Redemptionis Sacramentum to hear Mass properly.  If we are to form our minds to the will of God, then we must do what we must in order for that to happen.  In the case of the priest, he is to do what he must.  That is to celebrate Mass as the Church intends, not as he intends personally.  When Father Celebrant celebrates Mass with his on intonations and variations, he is lessening that which we have a right to.  I know that our world today is much "looser" than 50 or 60 years ago, but should that even matter.  As Catholics, we're called to be in the world, not of the world.

The Mass, as we know it isn't something that is freeform.  It is ordered and it is metered.  This is done on purpose.  It is done so that we might fully and completely engage our hearts, our minds and our souls, as God intends.  God is timeless and the Mass should be as well.  The Church in her wisdom has given us a formula to make this work and it is the duty of the priest to apply this formula.  If he does so incorrectly, he is not fulfilling his promise made to his Ordinary or his God.  The men who are ordained to the priesthood are educated men.  All have a Masters Degree.  All are able to read.  And we aren't even requiring them to read in Latin (ipso facto) any longer.  They all should be able to read as it is printed.

There is merit in following the addage:  Do the Red; Say the Black.  This is something that I have been promoting here since 2004.  It is something I have been promoting in RL since 1994.  We have a right to the Mass celebrated properly.  The point of the Mass isn't to be trendy or to be engaging colloquially by the priest celebrant, it is to lead the faithful to worship God the Father, through God the Son, by the power of God the Holy Spirit.  Period.  End of Sentence.  The Church's understanding of this is larger than any one mans.  That is why Sacrosanctum Concilium 22.3 is so important.  That is Vatican Council II.  And that is virtually ignored.

We also have a right per Redemptionis Sacramentum to demand that if a priest is celebrating the Mass inconsistently with the norms, then he should be asked to conform, in all charity.  If he doesn't, then it can and should move up the the chain even as far as the Pope himself.

I'm sure that I am viewed as rigid and hateful by some.  I'm okay with that.  I'm sure that I am viewed as old fashioned and behind the times.  Thanks to you for saying that.

[franciscanheart]

I guess I'm the lucky one here since I've never had this experience -- even in the Creed.

[hep_rsb]

4 hours ago, Gabriela said:

This raises a question for me: There's a Mass in the new place I'm in where everyone stands for the consecration. There are no kneelers, so I presume that's why. Personally, I'd rather kneel on the floor.

Is standing during the consecration technically allowed?

I think it is allowed.  At a Trappist Abbey I visited, all the sisters stood for the consecration. When I asked about it later, they said that it was part of the "Cistercian" rite, and that it was a holdover from when prayer was done standing as a "joyful" posture, and kneeling was a penitential position.  In that sense, it makes sense to stand for consecration since it is the most joyful part of the mass.

Also, in my parish, the choir (with no kneelers) always stands during the consecration, and just bows when the priest genuflects after each consecration.