Dear Father: Please Stop It

[truthfinder]

4 minutes ago, PhuturePriest said:

Why would Holy Mass be a near occasion of sin?

Because the abuse causes anger (and sometimes lead to such things as calumny, detraction, gossip, and revenge plots...)

Edit: pride, lots of pride

Edited January 18, 2016 by truthfinder

[Credo in Deum]

1 hour ago, bardegaulois said:

I got so tired of this and all the irreverences I've encountered at every Mass within an hour's drive of me that I resolved only to hear the TLM save in those grave cases in which I couldn't travel that far for a holy day of obligation. Holy Mass should not be a near occasion of sin.

Same here, broseph.  When I went to the EF an OF parishioner asked my why do I like the EF? I told him I like both, however, the EF consitantly provides me with a Mass that best adheres to the desires of Vatican II and the Holy Fathers. In the EF Latin has pride of place, Gregorian Chant has pride of place, etc. Plus the priests never insert their own style into the liturgy.  I've rarely seen OF masses do this and so to ensure I never have to worry about playing reverence roulette, I consitantly attend the EF.

 

Edited January 18, 2016 by Credo in Deum

[PhuturePriest]

5 minutes ago, truthfinder said:

Because the abuse causes anger (and sometimes lead to such things as calumny, detraction, gossip, and revenge plots...)

Edit: pride, lots of pride

That really was the main issue for me when I was becoming obsessed with liturgy. I think traditionalists run a risk of becoming snobbish and (as you say) prideful when it comes to liturgy. At least that was my experience, anyway. When I focused less on the specifics of the Liturgy and stopped watching everything Father and the altar boys did like an inquisitor, I became much more prayerful in the Mass. My personal motto is to just try and be grateful to God for the Mass, no matter what form, no matter how beautiful, and no matter how irreverent. An irreverent Mass still gives me the gift of praying in the presence of angels and receiving God himself. 

[truthfinder]

Just now, PhuturePriest said:

That really was the main issue for me when I was becoming obsessed with liturgy. I think traditionalists run a risk of becoming snobbish and (as you say) prideful when it comes to liturgy. At least that was my experience, anyway. When I focused less on the specifics of the Liturgy and stopped watching everything Father and the altar boys did like an inquisitor, I became much more prayerful in the Mass. My personal motto is to just try and be grateful to God for the Mass, no matter what form, no matter how beautiful, and no matter how irreverent. An irreverent Mass still gives me the gift of praying in the presence of angels and receiving God himself. 

See, in attending the EF now for a couple of years, I am much calmer after Sunday Mass.  I don't stew about what was going on, what Fr. did wrong, etc. (I might notice when one of the altar boys faceplants, or one of the local characters wanders in). But that's also primarily because I know that it's being done right and the soothing rhythm of it all.  I just can't find that in the OF, even when it's done right (even when it is an entirely Latin OF - yes, I've experienced one of those unicorns). So, when I do go to an OF, particularly one which I have experienced weird things in the past, I have a tendency to close my eyes and know that next week I'll be back to my own parish.

But, to the topic at hand, the priest still does not have a right to make up whatever he wants, OF or EF.  

[PhuturePriest]

6 minutes ago, truthfinder said:

See, in attending the EF now for a couple of years, I am much calmer after Sunday Mass.  I don't stew about what was going on, what Fr. did wrong, etc. (I might notice when one of the altar boys faceplants, or one of the local characters wanders in). But that's also primarily because I know that it's being done right and the soothing rhythm of it all.  I just can't find that in the OF, even when it's done right (even when it is an entirely Latin OF - yes, I've experienced one of those unicorns). So, when I do go to an OF, particularly one which I have experienced weird things in the past, I have a tendency to close my eyes and know that next week I'll be back to my own parish.

But, to the topic at hand, the priest still does not have a right to make up whatever he wants, OF or EF.  

I can certainly respect that. I think ultimately it comes down to spirituality and what some are more drawn to. On a much smaller scale, take something like litanies. I absolutely *loathe* litanies. No matter how hard I try, the moment a litany begins my mind decides to wander off and never returns until the litany is over. However, I do know some who love litanies and find them very beautiful and resonant. Some would argue otherwise, but I think the same principle applies for the forms of the Mass.

But yes. The topic at hand is perhaps important to focus on.

Edited January 18, 2016 by PhuturePriest

[Nihil Obstat]

1 hour ago, PhuturePriest said:

I can certainly respect that. I think ultimately it comes down to spirituality and what some are more drawn to. On a much smaller scale, take something like litanies. I absolutely *loathe* litanies. No matter how hard I try, the moment a litany begins my mind decides to wander off and never returns until the litany is over. However, I do know some who love litanies and find them very beautiful and resonant. Some would argue otherwise, but I think the same principle applies for the forms of the Mass.

But yes. The topic at hand is perhaps important to focus on.

What if Annibale Bugnini Jr. (Masonic Boogaloo) drafted the Novus Novus Ordo which was exclusively in litany form? Like a solid hour of litanies.

[truthfinder]

10 minutes ago, Nihil Obstat said:

What if Annibale Bugnini Jr. (Masonic Boogaloo) drafted the Novus Novus Ordo which was exclusively in litany form? Like a solid hour of litanies.

Don't think it would happen - repetition is a bad thing, remember. 

[Nihil Obstat]

Foiled again.

[PhuturePriest]

10 hours ago, Nihil Obstat said:

What if Annibale Bugnini Jr. (Masonic Boogaloo) drafted the Novus Novus Ordo which was exclusively in litany form? Like a solid hour of litanies.

I would attend an Eastern Rite Mass.

[Papist]

So basically, simply attend a Mass that you don't understand the language. Then you should have no problems.

[Credo in Deum]

28 minutes ago, Papist said:

So basically, simply attend a Mass that you don't understand the language. Then you should have no problems.

More like simply attend a mass which is reverent and one where the priest hasn't made it his own show.  Also attend a mass that preserves the liturgical traditions which Holy Mother Church has loved and contiues to love. It's not like these things cannot be done in the OF, it's just a sad reality that it's hardly ever done in the OF. 

[Nihil Obstat]

1 hour ago, PhuturePriest said:

I would attend an Eastern Rite Mass.

Ah, so you would avoid the Mass that causes you such distress?

[PhuturePriest]

4 minutes ago, Nihil Obstat said:

Ah, so you would avoid the Mass that causes you such distress?

I already said I respect those who get too distracted at the Novus Ordo.

43 minutes ago, Credo in Deum said:

More like simply attend a mass which is reverent and one where the priest hasn't made it his own show.  Also attend a mass that preserves the liturgical traditions which Holy Mother Church has loved and contiues to love. It's not like these things cannot be done in the OF, it's just a sad reality that it's hardly ever done in the OF. 

Perhaps where you live, which I know is notorious for its... interesting Masses. But even in my old diocese with apathetic priests and questionable theology, the Masses were mostly fine and reverent. My current diocese has excellent Masses as far as the eye can see, even though Latin is not present in most of them. I suppose I need you to explain what you mean exactly by most OF Masses having priests who turn them into shows.

[MarysLittleFlower]

16 hours ago, bardegaulois said:

I got so tired of this and all the irreverences I've encountered at every Mass within an hour's drive of me that I resolved only to hear the TLM save in those grave cases in which I couldn't travel that far for a holy day of obligation. Holy Mass should not be a near occasion of sin.

Its the same for me. The parish near my family home isn't so bad, the priests don't change the prayers or anything but there are still certain things (not from the priests) that aren't really reverent. I go to the TLM now unless I absolutely can't. 

15 hours ago, PhuturePriest said:

That really was the main issue for me when I was becoming obsessed with liturgy. I think traditionalists run a risk of becoming snobbish and (as you say) prideful when it comes to liturgy. At least that was my experience, anyway. When I focused less on the specifics of the Liturgy and stopped watching everything Father and the altar boys did like an inquisitor, I became much more prayerful in the Mass. My personal motto is to just try and be grateful to God for the Mass, no matter what form, no matter how beautiful, and no matter how irreverent. An irreverent Mass still gives me the gift of praying in the presence of angels and receiving God himself. 

I don't really think its necessarily snobbish... Irreverence is an offense against God.. Personally it bothers me not in a way where I get angry (though who knows, I might get angry) but just in pain from seeing the Mass treated as a gathering place rather than worship. It also makes me feel like I stand out if I'm just trying to do what I usually do and what is normal at my parish. It distracts me from prayer though I still pray and still love the Eucharist - but seeing certain things doesn't help. 

15 hours ago, PhuturePriest said:

 

think there's a risk of being prideful, with our concupiscence, and thinking "I'm better than these people". But I don't think that thinking "the Mass is holy and is not being treated as something holy" is prideful because its not about me? 

What do you think? 

Edited January 18, 2016 by MarysLittleFlower

[PhuturePriest]

10 minutes ago, MarysLittleFlower said:

Its the same for me. The parish near my family home isn't so bad, the priests don't change the prayers or anything but there are still certain things (not from the priests) that aren't really reverent. I go to the TLM now unless I absolutely can't. 

I don't really think its necessarily snobbish... Irreverence is an offense against God.. Personally it bothers me not in a way where I get angry (though who knows, I might get angry) but just in pain from seeing the Mass treated as a gathering place rather than worship. It also makes me feel like I stand out if I'm just trying to do what I usually do and what is normal at my parish. It distracts me from prayer though I still pray and still love the Eucharist - but seeing certain things doesn't help. 

It's not necessarily snobbish, no. Two months ago I went to a Mass in Chicago where the people didn't kneel for the consecration. That really bothered me and I didn't hesitate to be the black sheep of the crowd by kneeling. However, I've experienced, seen, and heard stories of traditionalists becoming very snobbish and legalistic with the Mass, forgetting that outward appearance is not as important as internal devotion. For instance, my old spiritual director would tell me of his friend in the FSSP who almost refused to celebrate Mass with him because a certain cloth was somewhat ragged and worn.

My mother recounted a while back that she used to be incredibly picky about liturgy, and she would find things to become annoyed about. She was at a Mass with our current bishop (a very good, traditional and reverent bishop) and in it he accidentally forgot to recite the Creed. She said she was fine with it because it was an accident, but several years ago something like that would have ruined her entire day.

I'm not saying this is what all or even a lot of traditionalists do or struggle with. It's simply a tendency I've observed traditionalists seem to sometimes battle with. Which is far enough, as other Catholics have their own tendencies they battle with.