Anglican Church Suspends Episcopalian Church

[veritasluxmea]

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/anglican-communion-suspends-u-s-episcopal-church-over-same-sex-n496786

"Archbishops of the worldwide Anglican Communion voted Thursday to suspend the entire U.S. Episcopal Church over its embrace of same-sex marriage, which they said has caused "deep pain" and "deeper mistrust" in the denomination.

The vote by archbishops meeting in Canterbury, England, essentially directs Archbishop of Canterbury Justin Welby to relegate almost 2 million American Episcopalians to non-voting "observer" status within their own communion.

Under the terms of the resolution, American Episcopalians and leaders will be stripped of their votes at Anglican conferences and assemblies, won't be allowed to participate in decision-making "on issues of doctrine or polity" and can't officially represent the Anglican Communion on interfaith commissions.

The action isn't anywhere near as severe as expulsion or excommunication. But the Rev. Michael B. Curry, presiding bishop of the U.S. church, said it does cause "real pain" for American Episcopalians." 

I'm a little confused. I thought the Anglican Church in England did support same-sex marriage? Don't they ordain women, even as bishops, in England as well? Or maybe I'm thinking of the wrong church. 

Still, I'm glad to see some steps are being taken to correct the Episcopalians un-Christian views. Maybe this will lead to a clearer understanding of the doctrine and maybe a full communion with Rome again, who knows. 

[PhuturePriest]

That awkward moment when you get so progressive even the Anglicans tell you to slow down.

[vee]

Just saw this on my fb news feed and am quite surprised!  The Americans wont like the British trying to tell them what to do again

[veritasluxmea]

What if the Episcopalians protest by marching into the Church of Canterbury and dumping tea leaves on the floor 

[Not The Philosopher]

To my understanding, lots of laity and priests in the Anglican Church support same-sex marriage, but yeah, the official stance is still opposed to it.

The Anglicans have women priests, but recently voted against women bishops a few years ago. Iunno if they've brought that issue up again in the meantime.

[bardegaulois]

3 hours ago, veritasluxmea said:

I'm a little confused. I thought the Anglican Church in England did support same-sex marriage? Don't they ordain women, even as bishops, in England as well? Or maybe I'm thinking of the wrong church. 

Still, I'm glad to see some steps are being taken to correct the Episcopalians un-Christian views. Maybe this will lead to a clearer understanding of the doctrine and maybe a full communion with Rome again, who knows. 

This isn't just the Church of England; this is the Anglican Communion, meaning all churches associated with the Church of England throughout the world. That includes Anglican churches in Africa and Asia, who have long looked askance at Western Anglican churches' buying into theological liberalism and the decadence of secular culture. They've long been threatening to break communion with Canterbury based on this.

[Luigi]

First of all, the suspension of the American Episcopal Church from voting on doctrine and polity has a three-year limit. What happens at the end of that three year term remains to be seen, but at the moment it's only a temporary move.

Secondly, it was not British Anglicans, per se, who voted for the suspension - it was the worldwide Anglican communion, which is now dominated by Anglicans living in the southern hemisphere - Nigeria, Kenya, other former British colonies. There are more Anglicans outside of England than there are in England-Scotland-Wales. It's the delegates from the conservative southern-hemisphere third world countries who carried the suspension vote.

[Peace]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglican_realignment

Episcopalians are cool. My ex g.f. was an Episcopalian. Actually now she is in one of their seminaries. I just think that she didn't get the idea of rules being in place in order to protect people. She kind of viewed rules only as a means of excluding people. I think that many of their hearts are in the right place, as far as wanting to be inclusive. Some just don't seem to get that the acceptance of some actions is harfmful to people because it encourages them to sin - but perhaps that is where you logically end up when you have sola fide and/or "once saved always saved" as core principles of your theology. . .

[PhuturePriest]

1 hour ago, Not The Philosopher said:

To my understanding, lots of laity and priests in the Anglican Church support same-sex marriage, but yeah, the official stance is still opposed to it.

The Anglicans have women priests, but recently voted against women bishops a few years ago. Iunno if they've brought that issue up again in the meantime.

I believe the Anglican Church recently allowed female bishops. I remember because one bishop had a cow over it and made a protest at the installation.

[Nihil Obstat]

1 hour ago, Peace said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglican_realignment

Episcopalians are cool. My ex g.f. was an Episcopalian. Actually now she is in one of their seminaries. I just think that she didn't get the idea of rules being in place in order to protect people. She kind of viewed rules only as a means of excluding people. I think that many of their hearts are in the right place, as far as wanting to be inclusive. Some just don't seem to get that the acceptance of some actions is harfmful to people because it encourages them to sin - but perhaps that is where you logically end up when you have sola fide and/or "once saved always saved" as core principles of your theology. . .

I have no doubt that they have nothing but good intentions, but the entire Anglican communion is the example par excellence of what happens when one believes that their good intentions allow them to flout authority, reason, and humility.

[Benedictus]

15 hours ago, veritasluxmea said:

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/anglican-communion-suspends-u-s-episcopal-church-over-same-sex-n496786

"Archbishops of the worldwide Anglican Communion voted Thursday to suspend the entire U.S. Episcopal Church over its embrace of same-sex marriage, which they said has caused "deep pain" and "deeper mistrust" in the denomination.

The vote by archbishops meeting in Canterbury, England, essentially directs Archbishop of Canterbury Justin Welby to relegate almost 2 million American Episcopalians to non-voting "observer" status within their own communion.

Under the terms of the resolution, American Episcopalians and leaders will be stripped of their votes at Anglican conferences and assemblies, won't be allowed to participate in decision-making "on issues of doctrine or polity" and can't officially represent the Anglican Communion on interfaith commissions.

It only has an impact on meetings of the Anglican Communion and its committees and interfaith boards. In reality, it makes little day to day difference to the operation of the Episcopal Church. They will only have observer status at the next primate meeting, in 2017, but I suspect they may not attend. They will then be fully operation by the next meeting in 2019.They won't have reversed their change of canon action, so the discipline was tokenistic.

15 hours ago, veritasluxmea said:

The action isn't anywhere near as severe as expulsion or excommunication. But the Rev. Michael B. Curry, presiding bishop of the U.S. church, said it does cause "real pain" for American Episcopalians." 

The real pain isn't this action, although it makes the wounds deeper because it focuses all on the Episcopal Church. It is the fact the report fails to discipline the behavior and attitudes of those who have done wrong in other provinces, regarding this issue, but also many others besides.

15 hours ago, veritasluxmea said:

I'm a little confused. I thought the Anglican Church in England did support same-sex marriage? Don't they ordain women, even as bishops, in England as well? Or maybe I'm thinking of the wrong church. 

No, not offically. It's also legally prohibited by law too unless the Church asks parliamanet to change it. They do allow Civil Partnerships for same sex clerics in relationships, although they are, at least offically, supposed to be celebate. Yes, the Church of England has ordained women as priests since the early 90's. They had decons at various times before that. They have ordained Bishops since 2015, finally passing the legislation in 2014 after a period where the votes failed along the way in the house of laity.

15 hours ago, veritasluxmea said:

Still, I'm glad to see some steps are being taken to correct the Episcopalians un-Christian views. Maybe this will lead to a clearer understanding of the doctrine and maybe a full communion with Rome again, who knows. 

I doubt they are seeking to connect with Rome. Most of them never had communion with Rome, being created after the divisions had occured through the Reformation.

If anything, the majority of the Communion are more reformed in their views and are mostly evangelical in orientation. The Anglican Communion, as a whole, is very different to the variety expressed in Northern Europe and the US. If commumion was established with Rome, regardless of the province, it would mean big changes for the Catholic Church too. Those priests in civil partnerships, women Priests and Bishops across the world aren't going anywhere.

11 hours ago, Peace said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglican_realignment

Episcopalians are cool. My ex g.f. was an Episcopalian. Actually now she is in one of their seminaries. I just think that she didn't get the idea of rules being in place in order to protect people. She kind of viewed rules only as a means of excluding people. I think that many of their hearts are in the right place, as far as wanting to be inclusive. Some just don't seem to get that the acceptance of some actions is harfmful to people because it encourages them to sin - but perhaps that is where you logically end up when you have sola fide and/or "once saved always saved" as core principles of your theology. . .

It's the challenge of post structuralism and post modernism. I believe in making lots of room for grace and growth, plus some healthy uncertainty. Legalism and fundamentalism are bad, or can be, but it's not the same as discipline and rules. Sometimes people get caught up as seeing one for the other.

[Benedictus]

12 hours ago, Luigi said:

First of all, the suspension of the American Episcopal Church from voting on doctrine and polity has a three-year limit. What happens at the end of that three year term remains to be seen, but at the moment it's only a temporary move.

Secondly, it was not British Anglicans, per se, who voted for the suspension - it was the worldwide Anglican communion, which is now dominated by Anglicans living in the southern hemisphere - Nigeria, Kenya, other former British colonies. There are more Anglicans outside of England than there are in England-Scotland-Wales. It's the delegates from the conservative southern-hemisphere third world countries who carried the suspension vote.

 

12 hours ago, bardegaulois said:

This isn't just the Church of England; this is the Anglican Communion, meaning all churches associated with the Church of England throughout the world. That includes Anglican churches in Africa and Asia, who have long looked askance at Western Anglican churches' buying into theological liberalism and the decadence of secular culture. They've long been threatening to break communion with Canterbury based on this.

It will be interesting what happens when a primate church close to England votes for something contentious, such as same sex marriage. There is overall support for some change in the Church in Wales, as an example, but not enough for the Archbishop of Wales to table a motion yet. In a few years the situation may well be different. I would imagine a similar situation in Scotland or Ireland too. I have a soft spot for the Church in Wales  -  I used to attend Welsh services to keep up my level when I was visiting.

Justin Welby has a difficult job, and I think Rowan Williams was glad to leave and get back to the University. Welby faces pressure by those in the Church of England, and the public and government, to make a path for changes. However, he has stressed because of the unique role of the English Church it makes it difficult in an international setting to take leading positions. So the answer is to usually fudge things and to delay for as long as possible. The latest strategy, or maybe not so late, is to let the factions argue stuff out as a distraction to prevent successful motions coming to the governing synod.

[veritasluxmea]

^Sounds a bit like there might be a further split then- the Episcopalians just becoming their own Church. 

Wow. And I thought how the Catholic Church runs things was complicated. 

2 hours ago, Benedictus said:

If anything, the majority of the Communion are more reformed in their views and are mostly evangelical in orientation. The Anglican Communion, as a whole, is very different to the variety expressed in Northern Europe and the US. If commumion was established with Rome, regardless of the province, it would mean big changes for the Catholic Church too. Those priests in civil partnerships, women Priests and Bishops across the world aren't going anywhere.

True, communion wouldn't be established unless they did go somewhere- but I'm guessing if the African or whatever section of their Church isn't happy about the other side's liberal polices, that's an opening to the Catholic Church, however small. I'm just optimistic. 

[bardegaulois]

Somewhat related, Fr Longenecker, himself formerly an Episcopal priest, draws a parallel here between the role African Anglican bishops played in ousting the Episcopalians to the role the African Catholic bishops played in the recent synod: http://www.ncregister.com/blog/longenecker/heres-how-the-surprising-move-by-anglicans-might-affect-the-catholic-church

[Benedictus]

9 hours ago, veritasluxmea said:

^Sounds a bit like there might be a further split then- the Episcopalians just becoming their own Church. 

Wow. And I thought how the Catholic Church runs things was complicated. 

True, communion wouldn't be established unless they did go somewhere- but I'm guessing if the African or whatever section of their Church isn't happy about the other side's liberal polices, that's an opening to the Catholic Church, however small. I'm just optimistic. 

I suspect most would simply form an alliance with newly formed Anglican groups rather than become Catholics. In reality the Anglican communion is simply a body of independant churches linked by a loose sense of forms, ideas, approaches and history. They have lots of committes and meet on matters of mission etc. In terms of each church being a member it makes little to any difference. It has, obviously, no sway as compared to Rome over Catholics.

The Anglicans who joined the Ordinariate, as an example, were very Catholic in Anglican terms (more Catholic in form than most Catholic parishes). Most of the primates who are conservative and have been making noises for years weren't interested in joining that. Likewise, most of the Anglicans who left the Episcopal Church of USA decided to form their own bodies rather than even think of becoming Catholics.

I think some of those primates are more conservative (in terms of reformed theology) in some of their views than most Catholics, including Bishops, so I'm not sure it wouldn't cause some tension even if they wanted to join as Catholics (from our side as much as anything). But, yeah, you never know

Either way I'm sure the liberals in the Anglican Churches may well feel upset at any break up but, at the end of the day, they'd be more willing to throw an overseas church body under the bus than sacrifice their own cultural context and sense of mission.