when people lose faith

[MarysLittleFlower]

I'm wondering if anyone has a good explanation from the Church about the verse that says if anyone "falls away" knowing the truth its impossible to come to repentance? What kind of impossibility is this talking about? Any more 'official' Church quotes would be welcome

a follow up question too... If we have a close friend who seems to be losing their faith, what are some good ways to help them? How do we also stay hopeful? Its very painful to see this happen to someone.

[Not A Real Name]

Are you referring to Romans 2:8?

It is painful to see friends lose their faith, but sometimes this needs to happen for God to perfect their faith.  The best thing we can do is pray for them, offer Mass for them, and show them that we are here to support them and listen to their concerns.  In the end we must surrender all things to God, and our hope is in knowing that God never forsakes those who truly seek Him.  

 

Edited January 3, 2016 by Not A Real Name

[MarysLittleFlower]

I found the verse... Its Hebrews 6:4. I'm sure Church Fathers or theologians must have written commentary on it. 

[Nihil Obstat]

21 minutes ago, MarysLittleFlower said:

I'm wondering if anyone has a good explanation from the Church about the verse that says if anyone "falls away" knowing the truth its impossible to come to repentance? What kind of impossibility is this talking about? Any more 'official' Church quotes would be welcome

a follow up question too... If we have a close friend who seems to be losing their faith, what are some good ways to help them? How do we also stay hopeful? Its very painful to see this happen to someone.

Not 100% sure what you are asking, but it is true that faith is a pre-requisite for repentance. One cannot truly approach the confessional without first believing in the Church. This is a grace that is not at all times guaranteed, hence the grave importance of remaining at all times in a state of grace. One never knows if they will find their way back to the confessional again.

[Credo in Deum]

21 minutes ago, MarysLittleFlower said:

I found the verse... Its Hebrews 6:4. I'm sure Church Fathers or theologians must have written commentary on it. 

Yes, it's a long commentary:

Haydock:

Ver. 4. &c. For it is impossible,[1] &c. This is an obscure place, differently expounded, which shows how rash it is for the ignorant to pretend to understand the holy Scriptures. Many understand these words, it is impossible, &c. of the sacrament of penance, or of returning to God by a profitable repentance, especially after such heinous sins as an apostacy from the true faith. But then we must take the word impossible, to imply no more than a thing that is very hard to be done, or that seldom happens, as when it is said, (Matthew xix. 26.) that it is impossible for rich men to be saved: and (Luke xvii. 1.) it is impossible that scandals should not come. For it is certain that it is never impossible for the greatest sinners to repent by the assistance which God offers them, who has also left the power to his ministers to forgive in his name the greatest sins. But others (whose interpretation seems preferable) expound this of baptism, which can only be given once. The words here in the text very much favour this exposition, when it is said, who were once enlightened. For baptism in the first ages was called the sacrament of illumination. See St. Denis de cælesti Hierar. chap. iv.; St. Gregory of Nazianzus; &c. The following words also agree with baptism, when they are said to have been made partakers of the Holy Ghost; to have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come; all which signify the interior graces, the miraculous gifts, andpower of working miracles, which they who were baptized frequently received in those days. --- They cannot be renewed again unto penance. That is, they cannot berenewed again by baptism, which is also called a renovation. (Titus iii. 5.) Their sins may indeed be forgiven them in the sacrament of penance, but this is not a renovation like that in baptism, in which both the guilt, and all pain due to past sins, is remitted; whereas in the sacrament of penance, though the guilt, and the eternal punishments due to sins be remitted, yet many times, temporal punishments, to be undergone either in this world or the next, still remain due to such as have been great sinners, to them who by relapsing into the same sins, have crucifiedagain to themselves the Son of God, making a mockery of him; i.e. who, insensible of the favours received, have ungratefully renewed sin; to take away which Christ suffered, was mocked, crucified, &c. (Witham) --- Macknight observes that Beza, without any authority from ancient manuscripts hath inserted in his version Si, If they shall fall away, that this text might not appear to contradict the Calvinistic doctrine of the assurance of salvation. The English translators have followed Beza. The biblical student will be glad to find Dr. Wells, in his elegant edition of the New Testament, frequently restoring and preferring those readings which agree with the Latin Vulgate. The same just tribute is paid to the Vulgate by Walton, Mills, Gerard, Griesbach, Harwood, and others. Indeed the Vulgate has been declared authentic in a general council, and probably expresses more of the true reading of the original or autograph, than any Greek edition that is now to be found, and certainly much more than modern versions, which are stained more or less by the preconceived sentiments of the translators. --- For the earth that drinketh in the rain, &c. He bringeth this comparison, to give them a horror of abusing God's graces and favours, and of making themselves guilty of hell fire. (Witham)

A link to the Haydock Bible

http://haydock1859.tripod.com

Edited January 4, 2016 by Credo in Deum

[beatitude]

MLF, you requested prayers for a friend who is struggling with faith the other day. Is this connected to them?

I have a friend who left the Church in a lot of pain and who is now a very belligerent atheist. This is someone who used to come with me on retreats and who would pray the rosary with me. She was the only practising Catholic friend I had when I was a teenager and our faith was at the cornerstone of our friendship. Once that was gone, the friendship itself crumbled - she chose to distance herself from people she used to know, including me. That was upsetting. It's also upsetting to know how she lives now. I understand why you're worrying. But we have the absolute assurance of Jesus that whatever we ask in his name, it will be given to us. His very name means saviour. For something to be truly 'in his name', it must be good and pure and in keeping with that meaning - and conversion of heart and salvation are certainly good and pure and fitting. I don't give much attention to the Fatima apparitions myself, but I know that you've read about them, so remember Our Lady's words there - that there are souls in hell because they had no one to pray. No other reason. Your friend has you. Trust in God's promises, and take the advice of St Padre Pio: "Pray, hope, and don't worry." NotARealName has an excellent point - remember that God makes "all things work together for our good", as Scripture says, and that he may use your friend's experiences of doubt and uncertainty to purify and refine their faith in ways that aren't visible yet.

I don't think discussing scripture or theology in the abstract is going to help either of you. As you've often written yourself, souls are unique. There is no magic formula or foolproof script that you can follow here to ensure that your friend remains in the Church. If you keep trying to think up convincing arguments or recommending that they do this or that, it may only push the person away, especially if you're acting out of anxiety and trying to soothe your own worry. Sometimes we have to accept that it's not possible for us to fix things with our bare hands and it's also not our job. You can provide light to your friend's path by being a loving friend. That is important, just to be a gentle presence in their life. But you can't dismantle their doubts for them.

[little2add]

 

[Ark]

2 hours ago, MarysLittleFlower said:

I'm wondering if anyone has a good explanation from the Church about the verse that says if anyone "falls away" knowing the truth its impossible to come to repentance? What kind of impossibility is this talking about? Any more 'official' Church quotes would be welcome

a follow up question too... If we have a close friend who seems to be losing their faith, what are some good ways to help them? How do we also stay hopeful? Its very painful to see this happen to someone.

The apparent meaning of the verse in Hebrews is that apostasy after initiation is unforgivable. It may be that the author of Hebrews believed this to be true. 

[veritasluxmea]

I'd like to echo what beatitude said- you can't fight those battles for them, and talking theology and reasons why the Church is right or why they should follow Jesus or something isn't going to convince them. Of course if they ask you directly about the Church or Jesus you can explain it to them, but don't initiate it. 

Don't let them know you're anxious about their faith or worried they're going to leave the Church, even if they've said something about it to you. Do let them know you're concerned about how they're feeling, how they are- maybe ask if everything's ok, say you've been thinking of them lately and hope they're doing well, invite them to something social and pay for lunch, and so on. Do give them space to make their own choices, again dont try to convince them of how they are wrong or something. let them know you'd always love to hang out and be friends, no matter their beliefs

[DemonSlayer]

Probably not exactly the same issue, but how do we respond to practising Catholics who still have a strong faith in God and Scripture and have a good prayer life, whilst rejecting specifically Catholic teachings (particularly Church authority, the Sacraments/the Mass and praying to Mary and the saints) and are not really open to learning more about the Church (often due to a distrust of the Church)? Should it be a concern or is it sufficient for them to be good Christians, while not having faith in the Catholic Church?

Edited January 7, 2016 by DemonSlayer

[MarysLittleFlower]

12 minutes ago, DemonSlayer said:

Probably not exactly the same issue, but how do we respond to practising Catholics who still have a strong faith in God and Scripture and have a good prayer life, whilst rejecting specifically Catholic teachings (particularly Church authority, the Sacraments/the Mass and praying to Mary and the saints) and are not really open to learning more about the Church (often due to a distrust of the Church)? Should it be a concern or is it sufficient for them to be good Christians, while not having faith in the Catholic Church?

I think it is serious because its a lack of faith and obedience. I think all we can do in that case besides prayer is encourage the person to understand the reasoning behind the teachings more, but if they know and still reject them, there's little we can do.... At its worst its heresy. Our priest did say in a homily a quote from St Faustina that prayers and sacrifices do more good than words, so if words are failing we need to pray and maybe offer Mass for the person that's really powerful. 

[MarysLittleFlower]

Thanks for the replies!  yes the friend that I'm talking about is the same friend that I asked for prayers for. She's really open to talking and opens up during our discussions, still I understand I can't "convince" her and I'm really trying to just be a good friend. We hang out sometimes, go for coffee/food/shopping, etc. It's really painful seeing her struggle because of the change I've seen in her faith life. I really would like for her to come closer to God and to persevere but I understand I can't convince anyone only pray for them. I really value our friendship too. The reason I was asking the theological question was just for myself to understand a verse in Scripture, I wasn't going to bring that up with my friend just to clarify.