Guest JeffCR07 Posted June 21, 2004 Share Posted June 21, 2004 Despite the fact that there really isn't an "argument" going on here, I really can "see both sides of the story." Before everything I say gets torn to bits, I would like to say that I think Apotheoun speaks the truth when he says that, ultimately, it is not for us to judge, but rather for those who are greater than us, and have been given that authority by Christ's Church. It [i]is[/i] for us to submit to the decisions of the Bishop. That having been said, I definately agree with everything that Anna and Cmom have said. But at the same time I think it can't hurt to try to look deeply into it, rather than simply try to find what the GIRM says and base my opinion off of that. Don't misinterperate, I think the GIRM should be followed more closely than we do - I live in the US, so liturgical abuses and uncalled-for insertations into the Mass abound - but I'm not positive that this is one of them. I am thinking of a person who has committed a mortal sin, is genuinly contrite, but can't get to confession before Mass. This person knows that, more than anything else, the Liturgy of the Eucharist is about being united with Christ and the Church. But the person is in a state of Mortal Sin and knows that receiving the Body and Blood would be a mortal sin in and of itself. Is it possible that the participation in the line, and a seeking of blessing, could be an expression of true desire to be reunited with the Church: A symbolic desire of spiritual homecoming. A visual expression, to God and to the congregated assembly, of that same longing and sorrow that consumed the mind of the estranged Prodigal Son? It was said before in this post that "What is the point of making a Spiritual Communion, if one is going to walk right up to the Sacred Host, but not receive It?" It makes me think of the woman who knew she was not worthy to speak to or touch Christ, but merely wished to be able to touch his robe, or the woman who argued that even the dogs eat the scraps of the master's table. If blessings are the spiritual scraps of the eucharistic feast, who am I to deny them even to the dogs? I am not saying this is the case - it probably isn't in most cases - but if it WERE the case, from a personal standpoint, I don't think I could judge the person or look down upon the act of joining the line. But of course, when the Bishops make their decision, we will know for certain, and there won't be any more questions! - Your Brother in Christ, Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
voiciblanche Posted June 21, 2004 Share Posted June 21, 2004 [quote name='Quietfire' date='Jun 20 2004, 11:52 AM'] Like I said, women can serve in other areas. If there are no arguements to the contrary, then doing the reading could be one of those 'other areas'. [/quote] Just a note about this - I'm a girl; I'll technically be a woman in about ten years. I'm not worthy, and never will be worthy, to even go to Mass. I am not worthy. Even one sin makes me unworthy to even approach God. He doesn't need my praise. Like St. John the Baptist said - we're not worthy to tie the straps of his sandals. I'm not worthy to be in His house, and I'm not worthy to receive His Body and Blood. So [i]what in the world[/i] makes me think I'm worthy to [i]serve[/i] in the Mass? I asked once where women belonged in the Mass, and was told that they mostly belong in the congregation. Perhaps reading one of the readings. At the time, I didn't think much of it, but now it's quite apparent to me that I am blessed unfathomably just to be able to come into God's house - and especially to receive His Body and Blood. I'm not going to ask for or argue to be able to do anything more. I'm happy just being able to be there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thicke Posted June 21, 2004 Share Posted June 21, 2004 (edited) I'd like to address this some....Maybe I am out of line, but this is the way I see it... [quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jun 21 2004, 06:38 AM']Of course it goes without saying that no one is required to go up for a blessing, but they are free to do so. There are several reasons for doing this: (1) the blessing received is a particular blessing imparted by the priest to that person as an individual. I don't know about you, but when I meet and talk to a priest even outside of the divine liturgy, I always ask for his blessing before we part company. [/quote] How is it different from the general blessing at the end of the Mass? [quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jun 21 2004, 06:38 AM'](2) the person approaching can make an act of adoration to the blessed sacrament which is exposed before him.[/quote] This is a personal act of devotion that doesn't really fit within the context of "Communion". [quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jun 21 2004, 06:38 AM'](3) this can be thought of as a type of spiritual communion, where the person approaches signifying their desire to receive Christ spiritually, since, for whatever reason, they cannot receive sacramentally.[/quote] I have no problem with that. But, when I have been in that particular situation, I have always done this from the pew. [quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jun 21 2004, 06:38 AM'](4) the blessing is imparted in proximity to the exposed Eucharistic presence, and this is in some sense similar to what happens at the end of Exposition and Benediction of the Blessed Sacrament, when the priest elevates and blesses all present with the Eucharist exposed in the monstrance.[/quote] Like you said, it "is in some sense similar to what happens at the end of Exposition and Benediction of the Blessed Sacrament", and that is where it should happen, not in the Mass. [quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jun 21 2004, 06:38 AM'](And (5) the priest, in a particular way while distributing Holy Communion, is acting in the person of Christ the head. Thus it is a special encounter between the individual receiving the blessing and Christ, who is present in the person of His minister.[/quote] Again, that is no different than the blessing at the end of Mass, while the priest is still in personae Christi. [quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jun 21 2004, 06:38 AM']Clearly, no one is required to do this, but there is nothing wrong with doing this either.[/quote] OK...well, I doubt it's "invalid". But, I also have doubts that it's not "illicit". Edited June 21, 2004 by thicke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thicke Posted June 21, 2004 Share Posted June 21, 2004 [quote name='voiciblanche' date='Jun 21 2004, 04:21 PM'] Just a note about this - I'm a girl; I'll technically be a woman in about ten years. I'm not worthy, and never will be worthy, to even go to Mass. I am not worthy. Even one sin makes me unworthy to even approach God. He doesn't need my praise. Like St. John the Baptist said - we're not worthy to tie the straps of his sandals. I'm not worthy to be in His house, and I'm not worthy to receive His Body and Blood. So [i]what in the world[/i] makes me think I'm worthy to [i]serve[/i] in the Mass? I asked once where women belonged in the Mass, and was told that they mostly belong in the congregation. Perhaps reading one of the readings. At the time, I didn't think much of it, but now it's quite apparent to me that I am blessed unfathomably just to be able to come into God's house - and especially to receive His Body and Blood. I'm not going to ask for or argue to be able to do anything more. I'm happy just being able to be there. [/quote] You're so cool.....Thanks you for showing us humility the way we all need to know it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JeffCR07 Posted June 21, 2004 Share Posted June 21, 2004 Thats an awesome perspective to hear. It reminds me a lot of the Prodigal Son Parable! - Your Brother in Christ, Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted June 21, 2004 Share Posted June 21, 2004 Isn't it optional to distribute the Precious Blood? That would cut down on EMs dramatically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archbishop 10-K Posted June 22, 2004 Share Posted June 22, 2004 [quote name='Dave' date='Jun 21 2004, 06:58 PM'] Isn't it optional to distribute the Precious Blood? That would cut down on EMs dramatically. [/quote] I think sacrificing the Precious Blood just to get rid of EMHC's is going a bit overboard, don't you think? Wouldn't it be easier to train and ordain deacons? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted June 22, 2004 Share Posted June 22, 2004 [quote name='Archbishop 10-K' date='Jun 21 2004, 08:14 PM'] I think sacrificing the Precious Blood just to get rid of EMHC's is going a bit overboard, don't you think? Wouldn't it be easier to train and ordain deacons? [/quote] Overboard? I doubt that. As for training and ordaining deacons, I don't know if that would necessarily be easier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archbishop 10-K Posted June 22, 2004 Share Posted June 22, 2004 Well, not easier, but more appropriate while keeping the Communion lines short. Sorry, bad choice of words. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JeffCR07 Posted June 22, 2004 Share Posted June 22, 2004 Yea, the thing we need to keep in perspective is that, yes, while you don't necessarily need both species to gain the fullness of Grace (ie you could receive just the Body or just the Blood and be just as well off) it is important to keep to tradition when at all possible, especially with regards to something as central to our faith as the eucharist. It may not be easier to train more deacons, but, in the end, I think it wiser. - Your Brother in Christ, Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted June 22, 2004 Author Share Posted June 22, 2004 Why not just do Intinction? I can see a few problems with this, but many relieved. I asked the archdeacon of our diocese today (he works for our parish) about the acolytate and he said it's only for those who are about to be Ordained to the Deaconate or Priesthood, and then only about 6 months before. He also said this is universally accepted. ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted June 22, 2004 Share Posted June 22, 2004 (edited) [quote name='thicke' date='Jun 21 2004, 04:25 PM']I have no problem with that. But, when I have been in that particular situation, I have always done this from the pew.[/quote] It is within your rights to offer adoration from the pew, but it is for the legitimate authorities to determine whether the act of approaching the priest for a blessing is an abuse. The bishop as the moderator of the liturgy in his diocese is charged with the duty of enforcing the rubrics and norms for the celebration of Mass. If you are disturbed by the practice of those who enter the procession for communion in order to receive a blessing, it is your right, and in fact if you feel that the practice is truly an abuse, it is your duty, to approach the local Ordinary, so that the issue may be resolved by the legitimate ecclesiastical authority. Let me clarify something. In giving reasons why a person might want to enter the procession for communion in order to receive a blessing, I am not thereby endorsing the practice. I leave it to the Magisterium of the Church to decide this matter, and as a Catholic, I will accept unhesitatingly the judgment of both the local bishop and the Supreme Magisterium. Since I am no longer a Latin Catholic, this is not really a problem for me, because in the Eastern Rites the entire congregation, after receiving communion and making an act of thanksgiving, concludes the divine liturgy by entering a second procession to venerate the cross (or an icon) held by the priest, to kiss his hand, and to receive the individual blessing of the celebrant. Edited June 22, 2004 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted June 22, 2004 Share Posted June 22, 2004 (edited) [quote name='qfnol31' date='Jun 22 2004, 12:18 AM']I asked the archdeacon of our diocese today (he works for our parish) about the acolytate and he said it's only for those who are about to be Ordained to the Deaconate or Priesthood, and then only about 6 months before. He also said this is universally accepted. ? [/quote] The archdeacon of your diocese is in error. In his Motu Proprio [u]Ministeria Quaedam[/u], the document by which Pope Paul VI suppressed the minor orders and created the two instituted ministries of the Acolytate and the Lectorate, the Holy Father said that these "Ministries may be assigned to lay Christians; [i][b]hence they are no longer to be considered as reserved to candidates for the sacrament of orders[/b][/i]." [Pope Paul VI, [u]Ministeria Quaedam[/u], art. 1] He went on to specify that, "In accordance with the ancient tradition of the Church, institution to the ministries of reader and acolyte is [i][b]reserved to men[/b][/i]." [Pope Paul VI, [u]Ministeria Quaedam[/u], art. 7] Thus, in accord with canon 230 § 1 of the Latin [u]Code of Canon Law[/u], "Lay men (Viri laici) who possess the age and qualifications established by decree of the conference of bishops can be admitted on a stable basis through the prescribed liturgical rite to the ministries of lector and acolyte." Clearly, your archdeacon needs to read [u]Ministeria Quaedam[/u] and the [u]Code of Canon Law[/u]. Edited June 22, 2004 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted June 22, 2004 Author Share Posted June 22, 2004 I knew he was, unfortunately, he's not the only who thinks that... However, is being someone preparing for a major order a requirement set up by the USCCB? That would be in line with the Law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted June 22, 2004 Share Posted June 22, 2004 (edited) [quote name='qfnol31' date='Jun 22 2004, 02:33 AM']I knew he was, unfortunately, he's not the only who thinks that... However, is being someone preparing for a major order a requirement set up by the USCCB? That would be in line with the Law.[/quote] No, it is not required. Here is the decree establishing the particular norms and qualifications for receiving institution to the ministries of the Acolytate and the Lectorate. These norms were passed by the conference of Bishops in the United States (USCCB) and were properly approved ([i]recognitio[/i]) by the Apostolic See, and so they have the force of particular law in the Latin Rite dioceses in the United States: [quote]Canon 230 § 1 - Liturgical Functions On November 17, 1999, the Latin Rite [i]de iure[/i] members of the National Conference of Catholic Bishops approved complementary legislation for canon 230 § 1 of the [u]Code of Canon Law[/u] for the Latin Rite dioceses of the United States. The action was granted [i]recognitio[/i] by the Congregation for Bishops in accord with article 82 of the Apostolic Constitution [u]Pastor Bonus[/u] and issued by decree of the Congregation for Bishops signed by His Eminence Lucas Cardinal Moreira Neves, Prefect, and His Excellency Most Reverend Franciscus Monterisi, Secretary, and dated June 14, 2000. [i]Complementary Norm[/i]: The National Conference of Catholic Bishops, in accord with the prescriptions of canon 230 § 1, hereby decrees that a layman who is to be installed in the ministries of lector or acolyte on a stable basis must have completed his twenty-first (21) year of age. The candidate must also possess the skills necessary for an effective proclamation of the Word or service at the altar, be a fully initiated member of the Catholic Church, be free of any canonical penalty, and live a life which befits the ministry to be undertaken. As President of the National Conference of Catholic Bishops, I hereby decree that the effective date of this decree for all the Latin Rite dioceses in the United States will be September 1, 2000. Given at the offices of the National Conference of Catholic Bishops in Washington, DC, on July 10, 2000. Most Reverend Joseph A. Fiorenza Bishop of Galveston-Houston President, NCCB Reverend Monsignor Dennis M. Schnurr General Secretary[/quote] Edited June 22, 2004 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now