Extraordinary Ministers Of...

[thicke]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jun 18 2004, 11:12 PM'] If there is truly a pressing need for additional ministers of Holy Communion every Sunday at Mass, rather than abuse the permission allowing the use of "Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion," which by the very title applied to that function indicates that it is to be used only [i][b]extraordinarily[/b][/i]; the bishop of the diocese should instead institute lay men to the permanent office of the Acolytate, in accord with canon 230 § 1 of the Latin [u]Code of Canon Law[/u]. Sadly, the reason this has not been done is that only men can be instituted to the ministry of the Acolytate, and this would mean that women could not be used to distribute Holy Communion during Mass; and that of course, would be politically incorrect in our modern egalitarian society, which rightly holds that men and women are equal, but which in addition mistakenly promotes the idea that they are identical, and even interchangeable. In conclusion it should be noted that the habitual and abusive use of "Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion" has been condemned repeatedly by the Holy See, but to no avail. The true answer to the shortage of ministers in the Church is not to be found in clericalizing the laity, quite the opposite, doing that will only help to suppress vocations to the priesthood. The instituted ministry of the Acolytate bestowed permanently upon men of good character, who have been properly trained, and who have a solid grasp of the Church's theological tradition, is an acceptable solution to the present problem, and it has the added bonus of being completely in line with the canonical norms of the Latin Rite. [/quote]
Thank you! I really just replied to this and quoted the whole thing in case anyone missed it the first time.

[qfnol31]

What's weird about the excessive use of them at my church is that we're supposed to be one of the more conservative in the area. I've mentioned it once to our head priest (yeah, this makes it all the more strange, we have 4 priests and 4 deacons...) and he says that having 26 lay people distribute Holy Communion at each Mass is part of what makes our parish so large. I personally just stopped and moved onto altar serving...

Speaking of which, someone mentioned some things to me about sex, altar serving, and other roles in the Mass. Do you guys think that sex really matters, or should everyone just be equal with no regards to sex? I have kinda strong feelings on this, personally, but I think a lot of times people probably just think of me as sexist...

BTW, for you women out there, I love the opposite sex (sometimes I'm accused of liking them too much ....J/K!), so don't think that I'm trying to start a revolt. I'm just curious to know this because I know that the countries who use women to serve most are the English speaking ones.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='qfnol31' date='Jun 20 2004, 12:27 AM'] I personally just stopped and moved onto altar serving...

Speaking of which, someone mentioned some things to me about sex, altar serving, and other roles in the Mass.  Do you guys think that sex really matters, or should everyone just be equal with no regards to sex?  I have kinda strong feelings on this, personally, but I think a lot of times people probably just think of me as sexist...

BTW, for you women out there, I love the opposite sex (sometimes I'm accused of liking them too much ....J/K!), so don't think that I'm trying to start a revolt.    I'm just curious to know this because I know that the countries who use women to serve most are the English speaking ones. [/quote]
Men and women are equal, but they are not identical, and thus they have different roles in both the natural order and the supernatural order. It is contrary to the truth about the human person, incarnated as either male or female, to hold that they are interchangeable, i.e., that masculinity and femininity are mere accidents. Instead, masculinity and femininity are intrinsically good, and the distinction of roles that results from the sexual differences between men and women, both physically and psychologically, are intended by God for the general good of humanity, and for the fulfillment of both sexes in a communion of life and love.

Sexual differentiation is something that will continue into eternity, for when Jesus rose from the dead, He rose with the same body that He had in life, with the wounds of His passion forever visible on His glorified and perfected body, and the same holds for all who will experience the resurrection to new life on the last day. A man, when he is resurrected, will always and for all eternity be male, and the same is true of a woman, she will always be female; and this is by God's own design. Men and women are fully equal in human dignity, but they are not interchangeable, because they are not identical; instead, they compliment and fulfill each other.

Edited June 20, 2004 by Apotheoun

[crusader1234]

I go to a Church of about 700, and we just have The Priest and the Deacon with the Bread/Body and 4 (2 on the Deacon's side 2 on the Priest's) with the Wine/Blood. The accolytes go around, and for abou 700 people it takes about 10 minutes I think at the most... Based on this, I think that for a Church of 1400, you'd need 4 and 8... 26? ?

[quote]Men and women are equal, but they are not identical[/quote]

That is a good point. I dont see how this affects their place in the mass (aside from Priests obviously). I don't really care about whether its a man or a woman giving me Communion, or being the Acolytes leading me there.

[Apotheoun]

That's because you are looking at things only from the perspective of the past 30 years. During that time, the feminist ideological perspective prevalent in the Western world has been constantly attacking the Christian understanding of the nature of man. If Catholics give in to this non-Christian ideology they will ultimately weaken the witness of the Church and damage society itself, particularly the family, which is an icon of the Church. [cf., Ephesians 5:22-6:4] I am an Eastern Catholic now, but I have grave concerns for my brethren in the Latin Rite, because they must not lose their own customs and traditions to a modernity that is in its foundations, anti-Catholic.

Prior to the 1970s, all the canons of both the particular and ecumenical councils, all the statements by the Popes and other Fathers of the Church, along with the various codes of canon law, universally forbade women from even approaching the altar, let alone serving at it and distributing communion, because service at the altar by God's design in both Testaments was reserved to men alone. This was the common and universal tradition of both the Eastern and the Western Church, and I should add that the Eastern Catholic Churches that are in communion with the Pope, and also the Eastern Orthodox Churches not in communion with him, still forbid women to serve at the altar. Sadly the Latin rite has gone against its own traditions in this area and has allowed a practice that blurs the distinction of roles between the laity and the clergy, and between men and women. If the Latin bishops followed their own [u]Code of Canon Law[/u], they would institute men, of mature age and theologically trained, as Acolytes, in accord with canon 230 § 1. But for some reason, they appear to be unwilling to do this. Regardless, the function of an "Extraordinary Minister of Holy Communion" is by definition EXTRAORDINARY, if it occurs every week or every day, it is no longer extraordinary, but has become a permanent office in the Church, and that is contrary to the norm of the law.

In addition it should never be forgotten that Pope Benedict XIV, referring back to the teaching of his predecessors and in particular to Pope St. Gelasius I (492-492 AD), in both his Constitution [u]Etsi Pastoralis[/u] (1742 AD) and in his Encyclical Letter [u]Allate Sunt[/u] went so far as to say that allowing women to serve at the altar was an "evil practice," and he then went on to quote Pope Innocent IV (1243-1254 AD) who said that "Women should not dare to serve at the altar; they should be altogether forbidden this ministry." [A quotation of Pope Innocent IV in Pope Benedict's Encyclical Letter [u]Allate Sunt[/u], no. 29 (1754 AD)] The blurring of the distinction between the roles of the laity and the clergy, and of men and women, undermines the tradition of the Church. It turns the liturgy into a battle ground of competing interests and of non-Catholic ideologies, and the liturgy is not the place for ideological and sociological experimentation. The liturgy is an action of Christ and His Church, the Whole Christ, offering worship to the Father through the Son and in the power of the Holy Spirit. The confusion of roles in the natural and in the supernatural order ultimately weakens the Church, because these distinctions exist by God's will, and no human power can ever negate them.

Edited June 20, 2004 by Apotheoun

[Quietfire]

By Dust...
[quote]What can I do? I'm thinking that it might be a good idea to provide letter "templates" that people can download and e-mail/mail to their local parishes. Each letter would be a simple, short, charitable inquiry of why specific liturgical abuses are occuring at that parish. We could have a separate letter for each type of abuse--properly formatted for maximum effect, and documented with proper teachings from Rome. What do y'all think about this idea?[/quote]

I personally think this would be a wonderful idea. I noticed that nobody responded to your idea. It makes sense.


By qfnol31
[quote]BTW, for you women out there, I love the opposite sex (sometimes I'm accused of liking them too much  ....J/K!), so don't think that I'm trying to start a revolt.  I'm just curious to know this because I know that the countries who use women to serve most are the English speaking ones.[/quote]


I am somewhat old fashioned. I think in all honesty that unless it is under the most extrodinary circumstances, women shouldnt be allowed to serve these positions during Mass. Women can and should be a part of the Church, but I just feel that they can serve in other areas. American is too caught up in this whole 'politically correct' garbage. What do politics have to do with Mass?
Oh, and I am a woman, and it's my personal opinion.

Peace.

Edited June 20, 2004 by Quietfire

[cmotherofpirl]

I have no problem with women doing the reading, but I would prefer altar boys rather than alter servers.
Our diocese has decreed that The Precious Blood be offered at all Sunday Masses so we can't do away with EEM's either.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Jun 20 2004, 10:22 AM'] I have no problem with women doing the reading, but I would prefer altar boys rather than alter servers.
Our diocese has decreed that The Precious Blood be offered at all Sunday Masses so we can't do away with EEM's either. [/quote]
Yes, temporarily deputed "Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion" can be done away with, if the bishop would simply follow the norms established in the [u]Code of Canon Law[/u], and institute men to the stable ministry of the Acolytate.

[Quietfire]

Like I said, women can serve in other areas.
If there are no arguements to the contrary, then doing the reading could be one of those 'other areas'.

I really have no say in this, since I am not received into the Church. But it still is my position.
It is probably something I will address though, upon being received.

Peace.

[Anna]

Perhaps this is a bit off topic, then again, maybe not...

This morning at Mass, I noticed that we did not observe the penitential rite at all. (We did not pray, "I confess to Almighty God, etc.")
Then, before Holy Communion, five Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion processed to the altar before the celebrant had received Holy Communion (and of course, before the Agnus Dei). None genuflected or knelt after the Agnus Dei, or even before the Blessed Sacrament when approaching the altar.
One woman stood right beside the priest while distributing the Hosts, while two other EMHCs on either side distributed Hosts and the Chalices.
The Extraordinary Minister of Holy Communion nearest me gave a very profound blessing to a mentally/physically disabled person who approached. I have seen him do this before also. He touched his hand to the non-communicating person's head, chest, and shoulders in a bold Sign-of-the-Cross blessing motion, but did not distribute the Host.
After Communion, the woman standing next to the priest reposed the Chalices and ciborium in the tabernacle!

My heart sank seeing all of this.
Were all of these things abuses?
What is the best course to take?

Pax Christi. <><

[cmotherofpirl]

[url="http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20040423_redemptionis-sacramentum_en.html#Preamble"]http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congrega...n.html#Preamble[/url]

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Anna' date='Jun 20 2004, 12:42 PM'] The Extraordinary Minister of Holy Communion nearest me gave a very profound blessing to a mentally/physically disabled person who approached. I have seen him do this before also. He touched his hand to the non-communicating person's head, chest, and shoulders in a bold Sign-of-the-Cross blessing motion, but did not distribute the Host.[/quote]
Only a priest can bestow and apostolic blessing on a person. The "Extraordinary Minister of Holy Communion," is just that, a temporarily deputed lay person who in an extraordinary case may distribute Holy Communion, it is not their role, nor is it in their power, to give a priestly apostolic blessing, only a man who has received sacred orders can do that.

Edited June 20, 2004 by Apotheoun

[thicke]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jun 20 2004, 05:18 PM'] Only a priest can bestow and apostolic blessing on a person. The "Extraordinary Minister of Holy Communion," is just that, a temporarily deputed lay person who in an extraordinary case may distribute Holy Communion, it is not their role, nor is it in their power, to give a priestly apostolic blessing, only a man who has received sacred orders can do that. [/quote]
Priests and deacons can bestow such a blessing I believe.

[Guest JeffCR07]

Just my 2 cents worth on the whole "eucharistic minister" question:

I'm a member of [i]Regnum Christi[/i] and, as such, I tend towards a much more orthodox approach to everything. Apotheoun, I have been to a Divine Liturgy of the Byzantine Rite of the Catholic Church, and I think the way they do it is great: only the priest, and both species together. However, being a member of the Roman Rite, I do acknowledge that our traditions differ, and, as such the species are seperate.

This having been said, there are, in my opinion, only two instances when an extraordinary minister of Holy Communion is necessary:

1.) If both the Body and the Blood would not be available otherwise. (I know that both are not necessary in order to receive the fullness of Grace, but I think it [i]is[/i] important to maintain tradition and offer both for people who desire both.

2.) If there is absolutely no way that the priest can distribute the Eucharist alone in an even moderately timely fashion.

I attend a HUGE parish at home (probably 800 people/Mass) and we typically have around 7 EMoHC's. What really bothers me is that Mass is typically around 50 minutes. If we were to simply allow Mass to run even just 5 minutes over an hour, everyone could receive from the Priest, and only ONE EMoHC would be necessary (for the distribution of the Blood of Christ).

Moreover, this need could be alleviated further if we simply followed Apotheoun's suggestion and appointed a few people to the ministry of Acolytate...or...better yet: if we encouraged more ppl to become Deacons

[RandomProddy]

[quote name='qfnol31' date='Jun 20 2004, 07:27 AM'] Speaking of which, someone mentioned some things to me about sex, altar serving, and other roles in the Mass. Do you guys think that sex really matters, or should everyone just be equal with no regards to sex? [/quote]
I'm sorry, I knew what you meant, but I laughed for like a minute when I read that