Did Mary have Free Will?

[Peace]

4 hours ago, Cam42 said:

The previous came from the Apostolic Letter defining the Immaculate Conception, Ineffabilis Deus.  In short, Mary's choice was an eternal one.  One in which she participated from her conception.

The language you cite certainly seems to support that.

What is the case with infant baptism? Do we say that consent by the child is assumed? Or do we say that the child has no capacity to consent, but that the choice is simply made for the child by his parents, despite the child's lack of capacity to make a choice? I think it is the latter.

If you are saying that God simply imposed on Mary a grace in the way that the graces of baptism are imposed on an infant, I think it helps your argument. But that does seem to make her an automaton, for better or worse.

If you insist on calling it a "choice" that Mary made "from the moment of her conception" then I think you have a tougher argument to sell. I don't think anyone is going to let you off the hook by just saying "it is a miracle". That is weak sauce.

Peace

[Peace]

Cam42:

In your view, what is it that keeps people in Heaven from sinning? You seem to think that they are given a special grace that prevents them from sinning, and that this is equivalent to the grace that Mary was given at her conception. Is that your view?

But is that what keeps us from sinning in Heaven? I have not heard that, but maybe I have not come across such a teaching. I had thought that it was the beatific vision that keeps people in Heaven from sinning. I haven't seen anything that indicates that people in Heaven obtain some special grace other than the beatific vision that makes it impossible for them to sin. . .

I had thought that with the angels, they were created without the beatific vision. When they were tested, those who chose God were granted the beatific vision which locked in their choice for all time, and those who rebelled against God were denied it, which locked in their choice for all time as well . . .

By what mechanism is it that Mary's choice is locked in for all time?

[Peace]

5 hours ago, Cam42 said:

 that she was always united with God and joined to him by an eternal covenant

You seem to think that this language implies that "Mary made a choice at her conception that was locked in for all time." Is that correct?

I don't know if you can read that much into the language. I think that you see God making "eternal covenants" with man at various places in the Bible. I would think that that the covenant that we are under (the New Covenant) was made before our existence - thus we were subject to it from the moment of our existence.

But like with any covenant, just because God is always faithful to the covenant, does not imply that man will always remain faithful to the covenant.

I am still having trouble understanding the mechanism by which you think Mary made a "choice" at the moment of her conception, or the mechanism by which that "choice" was locked in for all time.

Can you explain? Or does that fall into "it is a miracle" territory?

Edited December 24, 2015 by Peace

[Cam42]

13 hours ago, Peace said:

The language you cite certainly seems to support that.

What is the case with infant baptism? Do we say that consent by the child is assumed? Or do we say that the child has no capacity to consent, but that the choice is simply made for the child by his parents, despite the child's lack of capacity to make a choice? I think it is the latter.

If you are saying that God simply imposed on Mary a grace in the way that the graces of baptism are imposed on an infant, I think it helps your argument. But that does seem to make her an automaton, for better or worse.

If you insist on calling it a "choice" that Mary made "from the moment of her conception" then I think you have a tougher argument to sell. I don't think anyone is going to let you off the hook by just saying "it is a miracle". That is weak sauce.

Peace

So, with regard to infant baptism, that is a sacrament which was brought about by Christ's PDR.  Christ instituted Baptism as a method by which we can attain grace?  Right?  Right.  A Sacrament is an outward sign instituted by Christ to bring about grace.  Mary wasn't baptized, nor was she in need of baptism, because at her conception she was "full of grace."  Apples and oranges.  We're talking about two very different things.

[Cam42]

13 hours ago, Peace said:

Cam42:

In your view, what is it that keeps people in Heaven from sinning? You seem to think that they are given a special grace that prevents them from sinning, and that this is equivalent to the grace that Mary was given at her conception. Is that your view?

But is that what keeps us from sinning in Heaven? I have not heard that, but maybe I have not come across such a teaching. I had thought that it was the beatific vision that keeps people in Heaven from sinning. I haven't seen anything that indicates that people in Heaven obtain some special grace other than the beatific vision that makes it impossible for them to sin. . .

I had thought that with the angels, they were created without the beatific vision. When they were tested, those who chose God were granted the beatific vision which locked in their choice for all time, and those who rebelled against God were denied it, which locked in their choice for all time as well . . .

By what mechanism is it that Mary's choice is locked in for all time?

Sin is a defect of the human will.  Once we die and go through the particular judgement we are not bound by earthly constraints any longer, this includes sin.  Once we are judged, we are either in Heaven, Purgatory or Hell.  If we die in a state of Grace, we go to heaven and that is how we spend eternity.  If we die with venial sin on our soul, we go to Purgatory, where we must be purged, for a time, from said venial sin.  If we die with mortal sin on our soul, we go to Hell, where we spend eternity damned from the beatific vision.

There are a couple of qualifiers.  

1.  Only the saints are known by certainty to be in Heaven.  To be in heaven, means to have the beatific vision.  Existence is perfect and singular.  It is to  worship God.  Those in heaven worship perfectly according to the amount of grace they have at the moment of their death.  The worship is absolutely free, because that the true end of man.  There are however, varying levels of grace, but one does worship perfectly according to the amount of grace in his soul.

2.  It is taught that there is no defined time for reposition in Purgatory, but we cannot be certain that one enters Heaven until he is canonized.  This of course is all contingent upon the Last Judgement, wherein all in Purgatory will finally attain Heaven.  It is at the Last Judgment where the whole of the existing sin is purged.

With regard to angels, they live in the beatific vision all the time.  That is specifically what they were created for.  Those angels which enter into human history still have the beatific vision, but are fulfilling God's will.

Mary's choice was "locked in" by her free choice at the moment of her conception.  She lived her life with an indwelling of the Holy Spirit that was complete.  She lived her life "full of grace."  So, every free choice she made was ordered to God.  That is free will, lived perfectly.

12 hours ago, Peace said:

You seem to think that this language implies that "Mary made a choice at her conception that was locked in for all time." Is that correct?

I don't know if you can read that much into the language. I think that you see God making "eternal covenants" with man at various places in the Bible. I would think that that the covenant that we are under (the New Covenant) was made before our existence - thus we were subject to it from the moment of our existence.

But like with any covenant, just because God is always faithful to the covenant, does not imply that man will always remain faithful to the covenant.

I am still having trouble understanding the mechanism by which you think Mary made a "choice" at the moment of her conception, or the mechanism by which that "choice" was locked in for all time.

Can you explain? Or does that fall into "it is a miracle" territory?

Mary's choice was not "locked in for all time."  That is not how it should be presented.  Mary was not an automaton.  Mary's choices throughout her life, from her conception to her death, were free.  She freely chose God in every decision she made.  That is what free will is.  The idea that free will includes sin is incorrect.  There is a difference between what human will is and what free will is.  They are two entirely different things.

Free will is the ordering of oneself to God.  We understand this in the traditional definition in the Catechism.  We are to know God, love God, and serve God, so that we can be happy with Him in this world and the next.  These attributes are what make up free will.  Mary lived these perfectly.

Human will is for lack of a better term our soul.  It is why and how we live our lives.  It is imperfect.  Free will is what God gave to the human will.  Sin is a defect of the human will.  It is directly opposed to free will, but that is as much as it has in common with free will.  The human will is corrupted at birth by original sin.  It is cleansed by the Sacrament of Baptism, wherein there is an outward sign, instituted by Christ to bring about grace.  However, we are not free from the concupiscence of venial and mortal sin, because we were conceived imperfectly.

There is a miraculous aspect to Mary's conception.  It isn't something that we should be skeptical about, but rather it is something that we should embrace as God inserting Himself into human history.  We should be celebrating it, which is what the Church does.

[MarysLittleFlower]

On 12/17/2015 5:50:38, Anomaly said:

Starting this topic off to delineate an issue that was raised about Mary being capable of sin. 

Avoiding semantics in the other thread, the basic question is if Mary had/has the same free will as Adam and Eve and Angels?

Adam and the Angels weren't created with the stain of Original Sin. Okay, Mary could be born in the same condition.  However, the question is how could Mary have free will as did Adam, but also be incapable of sinning?  

Ultimately, why couldn't/didn't God create all His creatures with the same Nature and Free Will and avoided all the issues of the Fall, sin, etc.?

Think of it this way maybe... If Adam and Eve had passed the test, they would have been confirmed in grace in a special way. Yet still free. Mary had this. (She had more too as the Mother of God but i mean this point).

In Heaven we would not ever sin. Yet still free. So see its entirely possible it doesnt make us robots. It makes our will completely given to His, irrevocably. Here on earth its revocable. Yet not for Our Lady. And not in Heaven for us. Its a special privilege. If it seems like it takes away free will, consider Heaven and what Adam would have had if he had said yes. He would have reached a higher level of charity. Yet not a puppet. 

Is your Angel free? he can't sin though

so Mary was free. She just had so much grace there was no room for sin in her. And her choice to love God only caused her soul to expand. She was always full of grace though from the beginning. 

On 12/19/2015 10:58:04, HisChildForever said:

Didn't God technically make the choice for her at her conception? How did she "assent her will" if she had no consciousness at conception? I mean that kind of implies  she had awareness, which isn't biologically possible. Or was she granted awareness of her existence by God? If so why would she be surprised when the angel visited her?

Yes she had awareness before the rest of us do. She was surprised because of her humility. 

Edited December 24, 2015 by MarysLittleFlower

[MarysLittleFlower]

On 12/23/2015 11:33:44, Anomaly said:

How can Mary choose at conception?   She doesn't have an intellect or knowledge as a responsible human at that point.

She did have use of reason though... Even though we don't in the beginning. Her first act was an act of love to God 

26 minutes ago, MarysLittleFlower said:

Think of it this way maybe... If Adam and Eve had passed the test, they would have been confirmed in grace in a special way. Yet still free. Mary had this. (She had more too as the Mother of God but i mean this point).

In Heaven we would not ever sin. Yet still free. So see its entirely possible it doesnt make us robots. It makes our will completely given to His, irrevocably. Here on earth its revocable. Yet not for Our Lady. And not in Heaven for us. Its a special privilege. If it seems like it takes away free will, consider Heaven and what Adam would have had if he had said yes. He would have reached a higher level of charity. Yet not a puppet. 

Is your Angel free? he can't sin though

so Mary was free. She just had so much grace there was no room for sin in her. And her choice to love God only caused her soul to expand. She was always full of grace though from the beginning. 

Yes she had awareness before the rest of us do. She was surprised because of her humility. 

Just to clarify... Its not a perfect comparison with Heaven because in Heaven we would be in eternity and with the Beatific Vision. I just meant that we can be sinless and free so its not contradictory that Our Lady was sinless and free, though on earth. Adam would have been too if he had said yes to God. 

I actually have a question... Which is more accurate:

1) Our Lady is created full of grace with no original sin. She has free will as the Angels pre- fall. Then at her first moment, she says her Fiat and has free will like Angels post-fall. 

OR

2) Our Lady is created full of grace with no original sin. She has free will as the Angels post-fall. Then at her first moment she says her Fiat and (unsure what effect that would have, but something happens in her soul).. 

?

[MarysLittleFlower]

Cam or Knight of Christ, do you have any thoughts about my question above, since you both seemed to go into detail with the topic?

Of course when I say "post fall" I mean the will of the GOOD Angels, not those who fell. 

Clarifying the obvious but I don't want it to sound like a blasphemy 

Edited December 24, 2015 by MarysLittleFlower

[Cam42]

5 hours ago, MarysLittleFlower said:

[snip]

I actually have a question... Which is more accurate:

1) Our Lady is created full of grace with no original sin. She has free will as the Angels pre- fall. Then at her first moment, she says her Fiat and has free will like Angels post-fall. 

OR

2) Our Lady is created full of grace with no original sin. She has free will as the Angels post-fall. Then at her first moment she says her Fiat and (unsure what effect that would have, but something happens in her soul)..?

It's not exactly right to use angels as a comparison, but....More like 1.  Angels have a different nature than humans, so it's best to think of them as oranges to our apples.

But, you're right, Mary's fiat was at the moment of her conception.  It was confirmed, vocalized, whatever....at the Annunciation.  But that is just a revelation of a truth already known.

[MarysLittleFlower]

I see what you mean about Angels, because they make a choice completely and then their will is set, whereas we can change during life. Maybe my question was too technical but I'm wondering how Our Lady's Fiat affected her when she was already full of grace. Of course there is a significance with her giving her will completely to God. But even before she made her first act of love towards God, she was already immaculate and God filled her with grace from the first moment.. 

[Peace]

On December 24, 2015 at 11:28:17 PM, MarysLittleFlower said:

I see what you mean about Angels, because they make a choice completely and then their will is set, whereas we can change during life. Maybe my question was too technical but I'm wondering how Our Lady's Fiat affected her when she was already full of grace. Of course there is a significance with her giving her will completely to God. But even before she made her first act of love towards God, she was already immaculate and God filled her with grace from the first moment.. 

The Angels will is "set" because they are granted the beatific vision. 

http://www.ewtn.com/v/experts/showmessage.asp?number=417991&Pg=&Pgnu=&recnu=

Mary was not granted the beatific vision, so I am not sure what it is that prevents her from rejecting God's graces at any point in time while she was on the earth.

I think Cam42 tried to address that question in his previous posts but the answer does not make sense to me. I hope to follow up with him about it when I have more time . . .

[MarysLittleFlower]

1 hour ago, Peace said:

The Angels will is "set" because they are granted the beatific vision. 

http://www.ewtn.com/v/experts/showmessage.asp?number=417991&Pg=&Pgnu=&recnu=

Mary was not granted the beatific vision, so I am not sure what it is that prevents her from rejecting God's graces at any point in time while she was on the earth.

I think Cam42 tried to address that question in his previous posts but the answer does not make sense to me. I hope to follow up with him about it when I have more time . . .

I think there's something that happens when an unfallen being chooses God... I mean in time. I know Angels are different and also have the Beatific Vision.

But i think to humans something does happen. Adam didn't have that but if he had chosen to not sin, he would have had a special grace too. That's just my understanding. For us its different cause we are still fallen.

Also Our Lady was full of grace which is unique. So when she - an unfallen person with a sinless human nature, filled with grace, cooperated with it all from the first moment and gave her Fiat - her charity was so great that there was just no room for sin to enter. Im simplifying it and its just my understanding of it... God made her that way and of course she also cooperated - God's action was making her immaculate and preserving her from sin. Her cooperation raised her in charity where she was accepting all these graces. Of course in the end its God's action that caused all this. Am I right? 

There are several elements with Our Lady... Some things Adam could have had if he said yes, other things were unique to her. 

Edited December 26, 2015 by MarysLittleFlower

[Cam42]

10 hours ago, MarysLittleFlower said:

[snip]

Also Our Lady was full of grace which is unique. So when she - an unfallen person with a sinless human nature, filled with grace, cooperated with it all from the first moment and gave her Fiat - her charity was so great that there was just no room for sin to enter. Im simplifying it and its just my understanding of it... God made her that way and of course she also cooperated - God's action was making her immaculate and preserving her from sin. Her cooperation raised her in charity where she was accepting all these graces. Of course in the end its God's action that caused all this. Am I right? 

[snip]

Yes, God's action caused all of this.  And Mary participated perfectly in it, from the moment of her conception.