Cam42 Posted December 19, 2015 Share Posted December 19, 2015 11 hours ago, Papist said: My post was not a response to yours. okay? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted December 20, 2015 Share Posted December 20, 2015 Didn't God technically make the choice for her at her conception? How did she "assent her will" if she had no consciousness at conception? I mean that kind of implies she had awareness, which isn't biologically possible. Or was she granted awareness of her existence by God? If so why would she be surprised when the angel visited her? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anomaly Posted December 20, 2015 Author Share Posted December 20, 2015 On December 18, 2015 at 12:54:45 PM, Cam42 said: Correct. But your answer to the question doesn't answer the question, completely. Mary didn't sin, because of her impeccability, as KofC is asserting. All I am doing is supporting the notion of impeccability. But the short answer is yes, you're correct. So your saying that Mary had the ability to sin, but did not. God provides and aid maintained her immpecability prior to conception and continually to the moment the Angel came to her by giving Mary additional graces. At what point was Mary given a choice? When Mary was told, she was already pregnant. Mary assented after the fact. If she said no, would Jesus have disappeared from her womb? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted December 20, 2015 Share Posted December 20, 2015 20 minutes ago, Anomaly said: So your saying that Mary had the ability to sin, but did not. God provides and aid maintained her immpecability prior to conception and continually to the moment the Angel came to her by giving Mary additional graces. At what point was Mary given a choice? When Mary was told, she was already pregnant. Mary assented after the fact. If she said no, would Jesus have disappeared from her womb? Mary's choice was at the moment of her conception. We think of things in a linear way, because that is how we understand time. God exists outside our constructs. God maintained her impeccability from all time and through all time. Mary made a public assent of the truth she already knew, it was as much a part of her nature as sinning is a part of ours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anomaly Posted December 20, 2015 Author Share Posted December 20, 2015 so your saying that at the moment Mary said yes to Gabriel as a teen, God went back in time and removed the stain of original sin and began the gift of additional graces that allowed free will, but also provided the inability to commit sin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted December 20, 2015 Share Posted December 20, 2015 7 hours ago, Anomaly said: so your saying that at the moment Mary said yes to Gabriel as a teen, God went back in time and removed the stain of original sin and began the gift of additional graces that allowed free will, but also provided the inability to commit sin. Nope. Not at all. What I'm saying is this. At the moment of Mary's conception God excluded her from original sin. She didn't know sin. It was simply not part of her nature. Her nature was impeccable. When she gave her fiat, she was just confirming what already was a truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anomaly Posted December 20, 2015 Author Share Posted December 20, 2015 13 minutes ago, Cam42 said: Nope. Not at all. What I'm saying is this. At the moment of Mary's conception God excluded her from original sin. She didn't know sin. It was simply not part of her nature. Her nature was impeccable. When she gave her fiat, she was just confirming what already was a truth. So she was the same as Adam and Eve in that she came into existence without Original sin.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted December 20, 2015 Share Posted December 20, 2015 Just now, Anomaly said: So she was the same as Adam and Eve in that she came into existence without Original sin.... No. Adam and Eve were not born. They were created before original sin existed. Adam and Eve committed the original sin. Mary was still subject to the salvation of mankind. The difference is twofold. At the moment of her conception she was redemption was complete. The rest of man's redemption is complete at their death. That is the first. Insofar as this is the case, Mary lived her life impeccably. Her nature was sinless, because sin was excluded from her nature. That is the second. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
little2add Posted December 20, 2015 Share Posted December 20, 2015 Mary most certainly had free will She chose to give birth for a unexpected unplanned pregnancy She was also unmarried when she found out about it She must've been very brave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 (edited) Never mind, I don't want to get into this. Edited December 22, 2015 by Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gladius Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 Yes, Our Lady had free will and an absolutely unique vocation in all of human history. Her will was united intimately with her Son's. She was well aware of the amesome responsibility God had bestowed on her. She was and is, Full of Grace. When Gabriel came to her, she was not startled or intimidated. Her perfections put her at ease in the presence of the Angelic being. It was only when the request of God, to be the Mother His Son was fully explained to her (she could have refused), did she bow down in deepest humility to the Father. She who was to crush the head of the serpent, couldn't possibly be tempted to have any part in sin. She used her free will to make that choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted December 23, 2015 Share Posted December 23, 2015 On 12/21/2015, 10:57:24, Gladius said: Yes, Our Lady had free will and an absolutely unique vocation in all of human history. Her will was united intimately with her Son's. She was well aware of the amesome responsibility God had bestowed on her. She was and is, Full of Grace. When Gabriel came to her, she was not startled or intimidated. Her perfections put her at ease in the presence of the Angelic being. It was only when the request of God, to be the Mother His Son was fully explained to her (she could have refused), did she bow down in deepest humility to the Father. She who was to crush the head of the serpent, couldn't possibly be tempted to have any part in sin. She used her free will to make that choice. I agree. And that moment you are talking about was not at the Annunciation, but rather at her conception. The Annunciation was simply a confirmation or public assent of the will, which had already been understood as a truth, privately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anomaly Posted December 23, 2015 Author Share Posted December 23, 2015 (edited) How can Mary choose at conception? She doesn't have an intellect or knowledge as a responsible human at that point. Edited December 23, 2015 by Anomaly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted December 23, 2015 Share Posted December 23, 2015 2 hours ago, Anomaly said: How can Mary choose at conception? She doesn't have an intellect or knowledge as a responsible human at that point. That is the miracle of the Immaculate Conception. From the very beginning, and before time began, the eternal Father chose and prepared for his only-begotten Son a Mother in whom the Son of God would become incarnate and from whom, in the blessed fullness of time, he would be born into this world. Above all creatures did God so loved her that truly in her was the Father well pleased with singular delight. Therefore, far above all the angels and all the saints so wondrously did God endow her with the abundance of all heavenly gifts poured from the treasury of his divinity that this mother, ever absolutely free of all stain of sin, all fair and perfect, would possess that fullness of holy innocence and sanctity than which, under God, one cannot even imagine anything greater, and which, outside of God, no mind can succeed in comprehending fully. [snip] They also declared that the most glorious Virgin was Reparatrix of the first parents, the giver of life to posterity; that she was chosen before the ages, prepared for himself by the Most High, foretold by God when he said to the serpent, "I will put enmities between you and the woman."-unmistakable evidence that she was crushed the poisonous head of the serpent. And hence they affirmed that the Blessed Virgin was, through grace, entirely free from every stain of sin, and from all corruption of body, soul and mind; that she was always united with God and joined to him by an eternal covenant; that she was never in darkness but always in light; and that, therefore, she was entirely a fit habitation for Christ, not because of the state of her body, but because of her original grace. The previous came from the Apostolic Letter defining the Immaculate Conception, Ineffabilis Deus. In short, Mary's choice was an eternal one. One in which she participated from her conception. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anomaly Posted December 23, 2015 Author Share Posted December 23, 2015 You can't participate before you exist. So God planned for you, created you, "graced" you to be free from sin, you have intellect and can direct your "free" will to choose at conception.... How could the creature do anything but operate as the construct was built to perform? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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