veritasluxmea Posted March 3, 2016 Share Posted March 3, 2016 Not fighting against Trump allowing him to win in the sense that we have a responsibility as citizens to fight against tyrants. How does that old quote go... evil succeeds because good men do nothing, or something similar. If people who disagree with him and his morals just look the other way and do nothing about him, he will win. I think we have a responsibility to do what we can to prevent Trump winning the presidency. If despite our best efforts he still wins, it won't be because of our failure, whereas if we do nothing and he wins, it is on us. 13 minutes ago, Nihil Obstat said: Philosophically speaking, that is an absurd thing to say. Well, I'd rephrase it this way: doing nothing against Trump is supporting him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted March 3, 2016 Share Posted March 3, 2016 14 minutes ago, veritasluxmea said: Well, I'd rephrase it this way: doing nothing against Trump is supporting him. So? Both Trump and Clinton represent grave moral evils. Voting for either of them is material support for that evil. Remote, perhaps. Better than remote material support is no material support at all. Besides that, and in this case perhaps more importantly, there is no proportionate good to be gained by voting for Clinton who, again, supports a dizzying array of moral evils. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
veritasluxmea Posted March 3, 2016 Share Posted March 3, 2016 If she wins the GOP might be able to recover, which won't happen under Trump. I think it would be better to vote for a chance at recovery and a possible stronger push back in the future then be weakened off for good. There's probably not going to be any recovery, but a chance is better than nothing. Doing nothing against either of them isn't going to help anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 3, 2016 Share Posted March 3, 2016 I don't like Cruz but he might be the best option that has a chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4588686 Posted March 3, 2016 Share Posted March 3, 2016 1 hour ago, PhuturePriest said: How is not voting actively supporting evil? idk. How did Germans pretending that they didn't know what was happening at those camps support the Nazi state? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted March 3, 2016 Share Posted March 3, 2016 48 minutes ago, veritasluxmea said: If she wins the GOP might be able to recover, which won't happen under Trump. I think it would be better to vote for a chance at recovery and a possible stronger push back in the future then be weakened off for good. There's probably not going to be any recovery, but a chance is better than nothing. Doing nothing against either of them isn't going to help anyone. It is a bit disingenuous to claim that the Republicans have no possibility of recovering from a Trump presidency, but can recover from Clinton. There is really no way of knowing that, and it is certainly not a strong enough position from which to derive moral obligations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ark Posted March 3, 2016 Share Posted March 3, 2016 On 2/28/2016, 11:21:59, Amppax said: Too bad he won't disavow the KKK's support for him. http://www.cnn.com/2016/02/28/politics/donald-trump-white-supremacists/ KKK supports Trump? You mean the David Duke "endorsement"? Here are some facts: #1 David Duke never endorsed Trump #2 Nor is David Duke in the KKK (hasn't been in 40 years) #3 Trump disavowed Duke numerous times. Didn't know this? You can thank your local liberal media station for promoting disinformation. Trump is self funding and therefore has not been bought out by any of the lobbyists or special interests and therefore is the most feared. Rubio is the biggest puppet of them all. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TihORiLAvbo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peace Posted March 3, 2016 Share Posted March 3, 2016 2 hours ago, Nihil Obstat said: Voting for Hillary Clinton would be actively supporting a moral evil. Like I said, I think a Trump nomination is more than enough reason to refuse to vote, but that does not change how radically unacceptable Hillary Clinton is. I do not think in this situation it makes much sense to talk about a lesser evil. Both are unacceptable, and our public actions should reflect that. Hmm. Then how would you deal with the trolley problem? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolley_problem Isn't not voting for the lesser of two evils ( whoever you think that is) the equivalent of not pulling the switch and allowing 5 people to die? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
veritasluxmea Posted March 3, 2016 Share Posted March 3, 2016 (edited) True, it's all speculation, but I think it's enough of a risk to consider. http://thefederalist.com/2016/02/24/ill-take-hillary-clinton-over-donald-trump/ 2 hours ago, PhuturePriest said: How likely that person is to become president is irrelevant and not the way the electoral process is supposed to work. It does matter when people as evil and tyrannical as Trump and Hillary are up for the nomination. Taking away a vote from either the Democrat or Republican party simply weakens that party and the most weakened party loses. One political tactic used in elections is people from, say, the liberal side will give money to a third candidate on the Republican to keep them going long enough so that people will take their votes away from the Republican party nominee and go for the third guy. He has no chance of winning, but he does have a chance of weakening the party and giving the other party a stronger chance. Edited March 3, 2016 by veritasluxmea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted March 3, 2016 Share Posted March 3, 2016 9 minutes ago, Peace said: Hmm. Then how would you deal with the trolley problem? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolley_problem Isn't not voting for the lesser of two evils ( whoever you think that is) the equivalent of not pulling the switch and allowing 5 people to die? Like I said, I do not think we can really establish a lesser evil between Trump and Clinton. So the trolley problem is not really a salient point. And even if it were, I am inclined to refer as well to the fat man blocking the tunnel scenario, or however you have seen it formulated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhuturePriest Posted March 3, 2016 Share Posted March 3, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, veritasluxmea said: True, it's all speculation, but I think it's enough of a risk to consider. http://thefederalist.com/2016/02/24/ill-take-hillary-clinton-over-donald-trump/ It does matter when people as evil and tyrannical as Trump and Hillary are up for the nomination. Taking away a vote from either the Democrat or Republican party simply weakens that party and the most weakened party loses. One political tactic used in elections is people from, say, the liberal side will give money to a third candidate on the Republican to keep them going long enough so that people will take their votes away from the Republican party nominee and go for the third guy. He has no chance of winning, but he does have a chance of weakening the party and giving the other party a stronger chance. This sounds nice on paper. But problems occur when both candidates are so terrible that you cannot justify in your conscience voting for either one. From what I have observed, both Drumpf and Hillary are equally morally reprehensible in their policies. Asking me which to vote for is like asking me if I'd rather vote for Hitler or Stalin. As there are no discernible differences in who is better, I would simply opt to do a write-in or not vote at all. And that's what I'm going to do if Drumpf is indeed the nominee. This Saturday I will do my best to stop Drumpf from being the nominee. I will vote for who I think is the best mainstream candidate, and hope for the best. But I will not vote for a candidate who espouses mostly evil policies, be they Democrat or Republican. A party affiliation doesn't somehow make you less reprehensible than the other reprehensible candidate simply because you have an (R) beside your name. Abortion is not the only issue on the planet, and even if it were, Drumpf is by no means a protectorate of the right to life. He doesn't care. He's simply saying he's pro-life so he can get votes. He will not do anything for the pro-life movement if given the opportunity. He's a con man seeking power, and I'm not going to help him on his way to power. I cannot justify it, and so I will not do it. Edited March 3, 2016 by PhuturePriest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhuturePriest Posted March 3, 2016 Share Posted March 3, 2016 Another issue: if we only vote for who we really want when there isn't a risk of someone who supports evil obtaining power, we'll never vote for who we really want. There's always a democratic nominee in every presidential election, and it's a given that they will support abortion, gay marriage, euthanasia, assisted-suicide, etc. If we start voting for solidly good candidates rather than the lesser of two evils, we'll stop being put into the position of having to vote for the lesser of two evils. In this case, it just so happens that our regularized voting in of lesser evil has led us to the point where there really isn't a discernible difference between the two. It was bound to happen, and we need to learn from this mistake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basilisa Marie Posted March 3, 2016 Author Share Posted March 3, 2016 Vote third party. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 4, 2016 Share Posted March 4, 2016 (edited) They're debating now on Fox. Trump just got done telling everyone he has a giant ****. Lol Little Marco lol Edited March 4, 2016 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 4, 2016 Share Posted March 4, 2016 Everyone is sleeping on John Kasich. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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