Baptism and temporal punishment

[MarysLittleFlower]

I don't remember... If an adult is baptized right before death do they go straight to Heaven? 

[Lilllabettt]

56 minutes ago, MarysLittleFlower said:

I don't remember... If an adult is baptized right before death do they go straight to Heaven? 

distinct possibility. we don't know how temporal punishment works, so in theory they could still need purgatory for things that ran through their mind in the last minute of their life. But it's as close a direct flight as you can get.

St. John Wayne, pray for us.

St. Oscar Wilde, pray for us.

[Peace]

2 hours ago, MarysLittleFlower said:

I don't remember... If an adult is baptized right before death do they go straight to Heaven? 

Is punishment the only reason for purgatory? I am not too sure how it works, but I had thought that it had more to do with finishing the process of sanctification - removing the persons attachment / desire / inclination towards sin, etc. I think that we can still have those inclinations, even if we have paid whatever punishment needs to be paid. Or do you consider that punishment as being the same as the sanctification itself?

I have heard priests say that though. That a person went "straight to heaven" if he dies right after the last rites, etc. But I doubted whether it was true or if they had an incorrect understanding of it.

It would seem a bit odd to me that a saint could go through purgatory, but that a much more sinful person, such as myself, could get a free pass just because the timing of the sacraments worked out in my favor . . .

[Not The Philosopher]

14 minutes ago, Peace said:

It would seem a bit odd to me that a saint could go through purgatory, but that a much more sinful person, such as myself, could get a free pass just because the timing of the sacraments worked out in my favor . . .

Well, grace isn't the same thing as merit. Matthew 20:1-16.

[Peace]

2 hours ago, Not The Philosopher said:

Well, grace isn't the same thing as merit. Matthew 20:1-16.

I am not quite sure where you are going with this. Can you explain further how it relates to the issue?

[Not The Philosopher]

1 hour ago, Peace said:

I am not quite sure where you are going with this. Can you explain further how it relates to the issue?

I'm kinda busy, so here's the tl;dr version: nobody deserves grace.  It is a gift that God freely dispenses as he sees fit, rather than a reward demanded by justice. So it is entirely possible for grace to come more easily to one than another, for a man to sin all his life, repent at the last minute and be baptized and go to heaven*, while another is baptized as an infant, struggles throughout his life and suffers through purgatory first. Just like how the workers in the vineyard who arrived at the 11th hour got paid the same as those working from the morning.

*Of course, to expect this to happen to you is to commit the sin of presumption; God doesn't owe you that gift.

[Peace]

2 hours ago, Not The Philosopher said:

I'm kinda busy, so here's the tl;dr version: nobody deserves grace.  It is a gift that God freely dispenses as he sees fit, rather than a reward demanded by justice. So it is entirely possible for grace to come more easily to one than another, for a man to sin all his life, repent at the last minute and be baptized and go to heaven*, while another is baptized as an infant, struggles throughout his life and suffers through purgatory first. Just like how the workers in the vineyard who arrived at the 11th hour got paid the same as those working from the morning.

*Of course, to expect this to happen to you is to commit the sin of presumption; God doesn't owe you that gift.

Thanks - I think that what you wrote makes sense when it comes to salvation.

My sense with purgatory, however, was that it does not have to do so much with grace, but actually accounting for the real-life difference between people. Person A may have been a rapist up until the day before his execution, when he was baptized. He will go to heaven. But that doesn't change the fact that he raped numerous people and still (likely) has a terrible inclination towards sin. All of that needs to get taken care of in purgatory, even though he has received the grace of salvation.

Whereas a saint at the time of his/her death is likely much more close to being "perfect" or "clean". The saint receives the same grace of salvation, but should not have to spend nearly as much time in purgatory because of the life he/she lead.

I dunno. To conclude otherwise would seem to admit that there are no concrete consequences for sinning . . .

[Not The Philosopher]

55 minutes ago, Peace said:

Thanks - I think that what you wrote makes sense when it comes to salvation.

My sense with purgatory, however, was that it does not have to do so much with grace, but actually accounting for the real-life difference between people. Person A may have been a rapist up until the day before his execution, when he was baptized. He will go to heaven. But that doesn't change the fact that he raped numerous people and still (likely) has a terrible inclination towards sin. All of that needs to get taken care of in purgatory, even though he has received the grace of salvation.

Whereas a saint at the time of his/her death is likely much more close to being "perfect" or "clean". The saint receives the same grace of salvation, but should not have to spend nearly as much time in purgatory because of the life he/she lead.

I dunno. To conclude otherwise would seem to admit that there are no concrete consequences for sinning . . .

How do you understand indulgences, since they remit the temporal punishment/penance required for sins that are already forgiven?

[Peace]

1 minute ago, Not The Philosopher said:

How do you understand indulgences, since they remit the temporal punishment/penance required for sins that are already forgiven?

Sorry. I do not quite understand the question. My understanding of indulgences is that you do some acts that the Church instructs you to do, and it can reduce your time in purgatory.

Beyond that I am not quite sure what the question is.

[Not The Philosopher]

14 minutes ago, Peace said:

Sorry. I do not quite understand the question. My understanding of indulgences is that you do some acts that the Church instructs you to do, and it can reduce your time in purgatory.

Beyond that I am not quite sure what the question is.

Well, you were talking about the penance/punishment required to make satisfaction for sins and remove sinful tendencies. An indulgence is an example of that penance being reduced, or in some cases removed entirely. So it suggests that, although temporal punishment is the normal course for sins that are already forgiven, it's not absolute in the sense that God can remit it if he so pleases.

I mean, it's fully within God's power to completely remove any particular sinful tendency or cross we have. Someone could, say, be miraculously healed of a porn addiction they were struggling with, for example.

[Peace]

9 minutes ago, Not The Philosopher said:

Well, you were talking about the penance/punishment required to make satisfaction for sins and remove sinful tendencies. An indulgence is an example of that penance being reduced, or in some cases removed entirely. So it suggests that, although temporal punishment is the normal course for sins that are already forgiven, it's not absolute in the sense that God can remit it if he so pleases.

I mean, it's fully within God's power to completely remove any particular sinful tendency or cross we have. Someone could, say, be miraculously healed of a porn addiction they were struggling with, for example.

Sure. God can do that if He wills it. No argument there.

But does He do that via the sacraments?

I do not know if there is a Church teaching on that or not. I would be interested to know, actually.

[Not The Philosopher]

9 minutes ago, Peace said:

Sure. God can do that if He wills it. No argument there.

But does He do that via the sacraments?

I do not know if there is a Church teaching on that or not. I would be interested to know, actually.

From the Catechism:

1263 By baptism all sins are forgiven, original sin and all personal sins, as well as all punishment for sin. In those who have been reborn nothing remains that would impede their entry into the Kingdom of God, neither Adam's sin, nor personal sin, nor the consequences of sin, the gravest of which is separation from God.

1264 Yet certain temporal consequences of sin remain in the baptized, such as suffering, illness, death and such frailties inherent in life as weaknesses of character and so on, as well as an inclination to sin that Tradition calls concupiscence, or metaphorically, "the tinder for sin" (fomes peccati); since concupiscence "is left for us to wrestle with, it cannot harm those who do not consent but manfully resist it by the grace of Jesus Christ." Indeed, "an athelete is not crowned unless he competes according to the rules."

So it does seem like if you die right after baptism, you're likely going straight to heaven. Baptism doesn't remove concupiscence but it prevents it from holding you back from the beatific vision. You don't need extra purification on top of that, so presumably you just leave those inclinations behind when you shuffle off this mortal coil.

[Peace]

2 minutes ago, Not The Philosopher said:

From the Catechism:

1263 By baptism all sins are forgiven, original sin and all personal sins, as well as all punishment for sin. In those who have been reborn nothing remains that would impede their entry into the Kingdom of God, neither Adam's sin, nor personal sin, nor the consequences of sin, the gravest of which is separation from God.

1264 Yet certain temporal consequences of sin remain in the baptized, such as suffering, illness, death and such frailties inherent in life as weaknesses of character and so on, as well as an inclination to sin that Tradition calls concupiscence, or metaphorically, "the tinder for sin" (fomes peccati); since concupiscence "is left for us to wrestle with, it cannot harm those who do not consent but manfully resist it by the grace of Jesus Christ." Indeed, "an athelete is not crowned unless he competes according to the rules."

So it does seem like if you die right after baptism, you're likely going straight to heaven. Baptism doesn't remove concupiscence but it prevents it from holding you back from the beatific vision. You don't need extra purification on top of that, so presumably you just leave those inclinations behind when you shuffle off this mortal coil.

Hmm. It seems that it is possible for a person to go straight to heaven. I would think that for most people that "concupiscence" would still remain - and need to be removed during purgatory. I don't think that people in Heaven have concupiscence. I would think that it needs to be removed before one can enter.

I don't really know though. These are topics that I am not very good at.