Break up with my girlfriend?

[Not A Real Name]

32 minutes ago, Peace said:

Anything else - or was that it?

 

Do you think there should be something else?  Are you under the impression that premarital sex isn't a big issue?  What are you going to do differently if your girlfriend asks you to have sex again?  If you knew premarital sex was wrong but did it anyway in the past, what makes you think the next time there is a temptation for premarital sex that you will have the courage to do what you didn't have the courage to do the first time, second time, or third time, or however many a "few" times is in your book?   The fact that you went to her after your confession and asked "Hey, we should cut that our, right?  We should at least try to do what we know is right " would indicate that maybe you haven't been living in a manner which conveys that you are not a person who bends to sin.   Also it looks like you are asking for her approval/permission to not have premarital sex.  Is this the case?  If so what would you do if she said "No, we should not cut that out since I do not see anything wrong with it." You have already expressed that you have gotten the impression from her that she does not want to be abstinent.

Sorry Peace, but it seems prideful to continue to put yourself in a situation where you have already fallen into mortal sin a few times (which is a few times too many). You do know that when you make a confession you promise to avoid occasions of sin? Do you think your relationship has become an occasion of sin for you? Also don't answer me on that question.  I would suggest you reflect on that question and pray about it. 

Edited December 13, 2015 by Not A Real Name

[Peace]

1 hour ago, Norseman82 said:

Actually, St. Paul in 1 Corinthians 6 singles out fornication as a special class of sin.  He felt so strongly that he used the image of being united to a prostitute. Like the saying goes, when you sleep with someone, you sleep with everyone they slept with, and everyone they slept with, and so on, and so on.  And at Fatima, Mary said that more people would go to hell for "sins of the flesh" than any other sin.  One of the reasons this culture has sunk down the toilet is because people don't take this seriously.enough.  Sure, it happened in the past, but there used to be a sense of shame and guilt about it that kept society in check.

I am not sure if Paul classifies "fornication" as a special class of sin there. Paul refers to "sexual immorality" and mentions prostitution as a specific example. One might guess that prostitution was the specific sin that many of the Corinthians were engaged in.

But regardless - "sexual immorality" includes more than fornication. It also includes pornography, masturbation, lust, etc. Would it be a safe bet to say that a person of high morals such as yourself has never once found yourself guilty of any of these?

[Norseman82]

5 minutes ago, Peace said:

I am not sure if Paul classifies "fornication" as a special class of sin there. Paul refers to "sexual immorality" and mentions prostitution as a specific example. One might guess that prostitution was the specific sin that many of the Corinthians were engaged in.

But regardless - "sexual immorality" includes more than fornication. It also includes pornography, masturbation, lust, etc. Would it be a safe bet to say that a person of high morals such as yourself has never once found yourself guilty of any of these?

Actually, the Bible is explicit in using the word "fornication".

And Not a Real Name has a valid point.  Not cool to tell (or want to tell) a woman that she has loose morals after you sleep with her multiple times when you really don't know her well, per your opening post in this thread.

[Peace]

1 minute ago, Not A Real Name said:

Do you think there should be something else?  

 I thought that your conclusion was unwarranted by the evidence presented. I do not think the fact that a person has committed a sin is sufficient to warrant a conclusion that the person is not strong enough to live their faith.

1 minute ago, Not A Real Name said:

Are you under the impression that premarital sex isn't a big issue?  

No.

1 minute ago, Not A Real Name said:

What are you going to do differently if your girlfriend asks you to have sex again?  

I plan to say no.

1 minute ago, Not A Real Name said:

If you knew premarital sex was wrong but did it anyway in the past, what makes you think the next time there is a temptation for premarital sex that you will have the courage to do what you didn't have the courage to do the first time, second time, or third time, or however many a "few" times is in your book?

With the grace of God all things are possible.

1 minute ago, Not A Real Name said:

The fact that you went to her after your confession and asked "Hey, we should cut that our, right?  We should at least try to do what we know is right " would indicate that maybe you haven't been living in a manner which conveys that you are not a person who bends to sin.  

Yes. It does indeed take two to tango. I am just as guilty as she was.

1 minute ago, Not A Real Name said:

Also it looks like you are asking for her approval/permission to not have premarital sex.  Is this the case?

No.

1 minute ago, Not A Real Name said:

If so what would you do if she said "No, we should not cut that out since I do not see anything wrong with it." You have already expressed that you have gotten the impression from her that she does not want to be abstinent.

I already stated what I would do in that situation previously in this post. I stated that in that case we would have to split up.

1 minute ago, Not A Real Name said:

Sorry Peace, but it seems prideful to continue to put yourself in a situation where you have already fallen into mortal sin a few times (which is a few times too many).

Maybe you are correct. I will give it some additional thought.

1 minute ago, Not A Real Name said:

You do know that when you make a confession you promise to avoid occasions of sin? 

I think that I have demonstrated an ability to read by responding to your posts. That ability to read would also include reading the act of contrition on the confessional wall. Does that answer your question?

1 minute ago, Not A Real Name said:

Do you think your relationship has become an occasion of sin for you? Also don't answer me on that question.  I would suggest you reflect on that question and pray about it. 

That is a good suggestion. I will.

[Norseman82]

Even if you break up with her because you feel she is an occasion of sin, people may still think "he had his fun with her, now he's throwing her by the wayside".

IMHO, the best thing would be to do what you already started to do: to take the moral leadership (which you will need to do as a husband anyway, so this will be a good practice for that future role). Say bluntly "no more sinning". Mean it. Follow through with it. Don't give in. Then, if she can't handle it, she will have the option to break up with you, but it will be her action that she will have to be accountable for on judgment day.  And you won't be the "bad guy".

[Peace]

13 minutes ago, Norseman82 said:

Actually, the Bible is explicit in using the word "fornication".

OK. The translation (ESV) I am using says "sexual immorality" but I will take your word for it. You don't think that what Paul is talking about in that chapter would include things like masturbation, lust, watching pornography, etc.? These also seem to be sins against a person's own body, which appears to be the "special class" that Paul is referring to:

Shun immorality.^[h] Every other sin which a man commits is outside the body; but the immoral man sins against his own body. ¹⁹

13 minutes ago, Norseman82 said:

And Not a Real Name has a valid point.  Not cool to tell (or want to tell) a woman that she has loose morals after you sleep with her multiple times when you really don't know her well, per your opening post in this thread.

Yeah. My morals were loose too. There is no denying that. I want to change it.

[Not A Real Name]

15 minutes ago, Peace said:

 I thought that your conclusion was unwarranted by the evidence presented. I do not think the fact that a person has committed a sin is sufficient to warrant a conclusion that the person is not strong enough to live their faith.

 

With the grace of God all things are possible.

 

I would agree if you had only committed "A" sin, but that is not what happened.  You admitted you have done this sin a few times which shows there is a problem. Given now that you are wounded by this sin, you are even weaker now than you were before in your ability to fight against it. 

"With the grace of God all things are possible."  Yes, all things are possible when they lead to virtue and avoiding sin.  However, God does not continue to give you graces when you put yourself back into an occasion of sin. In fact putting yourself in an occasion sin is itself a mortal sin.  

Proverbs 26:11

Edited December 13, 2015 by Not A Real Name

[Norseman82]

12 minutes ago, Peace said:

OK. The translation (ESV) I am using says "sexual immorality" but I will take your word for it. You don't think that what Paul is talking about in that chapter would include things like masturbation, lust, watching pornography, etc.? These also seem to be sins against a person's own body, which appears to be the "special class" that Paul is referring to:

Shun immorality.^[h] Every other sin which a man commits is outside the body; but the immoral man sins against his own body. ¹⁹

Yeah. My morals were loose too. There is no denying that. I want to change it.

Yes, those things are sins, too.  However, fornication crosses the line because there is a physical union that the other sins do not have, hence St. Paul's warning about "uniting with a prostitute".

My source was a parallel version translation in www.awmach.org

[Peace]

2 minutes ago, Not A Real Name said:

I would agree if you had only committed "A" sin, but that is not what happened.  You admitted you have done this sin a few times which shows there is a problem. Given now that you are wounded by this sin, you are even weaker now than you were before in your ability to fight against it. 

I see. So if I commit a sin 1 time then I am OK. If I commit the sin twice then I am in trouble? I would be willing to bet that I have broken most of the commandments many more times than 2 so I guess that I am in some serious trouble. Perhaps I am.

As for my being weaker now. I am not so sure if that is true. I think that people become stronger with frequent participation in the sacraments. By frequent confession, going to Mass, etc., the temptation to commit those sins should decrease. That is what my priest said, at least.

2 minutes ago, Not A Real Name said:

 However, God does not continue to give you graces when you put yourself back into an occasion of sin.

I do not think this is correct. Otherwise, how is it that some people who commit terrible sins consistently year after year find their way back to confession? We know that we can do no good without God. It seems that God must give even those people some amount of grace such that they repent and go to confession.

Whether being in a relationship with her is a near occasion of sin is something that I will need to think about. My inclination is to answer that question with a no, but I will think about it.

2 minutes ago, Not A Real Name said:

In fact putting yourself in an occasion sin is itself a mortal sin.  

Proverbs 26:11

I was not aware of that, nor am I certain that this is correct. Can you point me to the paragraph of the Catechism that says that?

[Nihil Obstat]

1 minute ago, Peace said:

 

I was not aware of that, nor am I certain that this is correct. Can you point me to the paragraph of the Catechism that says that?

I have been taught the same thing consistently by several very holy and very intelligent priests.

[Peace]

10 minutes ago, Nihil Obstat said:

I have been taught the same thing consistently by several very holy and very intelligent priests.

Well. They are holy insofar as you know, but I will take that into consideration. A source would still be nice. That conclusion does not seem very logical on its face to me. The act of contrition itself says "I firmly resolve, with the help of Thy grace, to sin no more and to avoid the near occasions of sin." There seems to be a clear distinction between sinning, and avoiding the near occasions of sin.

It is tough for me to believe that putting yourself in the position of a near occasion of sin is sufficient to be a mortal sin. Let's say a couple that are dating have dinner late at his house or her house, alone. That is a near occasion of sin. At the end of a nice dinner he goes home. No sleeping together. No making out. Etc. One of them is going to hell for that? Seems a bit extreme.

But if you have a source that says something to that effect, I could potentially be convinced.

Edited December 13, 2015 by Peace

[Nihil Obstat]

I trust the guidance of my pastors who are concerned for the state of my soul, and who have dedicated their lives to that paternal care of myself and my fellow parishioners and friends. I felt no need to ask Father for a catechism citation.

All that being fair, I am relatively confident that your proof can be found in the Summa. I am out right now so I cannot find it today.

Edited December 13, 2015 by Nihil Obstat

[Peace]

1 minute ago, Nihil Obstat said:

I trust the guidance of my pastors who are concerned for the state of my soul, and who have dedicated their lives to that paternal care of myself and my fellow parishioners and friends. I felt no need to ask Father for a catechism citation.

Well. We can both agree that it is good to avoid the near occasions of sin. If my pastor had told me that then I might be inclined to believe it too.

As for now, the only source I have for that statement is a person on the internet that I have never met - so I think you can understand why I might not be persuaded at this point in time.

[Peace]

I don't disagree that it would be a sin, by the way. But I have trouble seeing how something like that could be a mortal sin.

Perhaps if the person put himself in the near occasion of sin with the express intent to eventually commit the mortal sin? Like - if you went over your girlfriend's house late at night hoping to get busy, but she kicked you out?

I think that for a sin to be mortal the action must be a grave matter - I am not quite sure how having a late dinner at your girlfriend's house would be up there with things like "Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like . . ."

It would seem like bad judgement, but I have trouble seeing how it is mortal . . .

[beatitude]

22 minutes ago, Peace said:

I don't disagree that it would be a sin, by the way. But I have trouble seeing how something like that could be a mortal sin.

Perhaps if the person put himself in the near occasion of sin with the express intent to eventually commit the mortal sin? Like - if you went over your girlfriend's house late at night hoping to get busy, but she kicked you out?

I think this is a good definition, because mortal sin always involves free will/intent to do something wrong.

However, if you have a habit of committing the same sin, I think it's simply a matter of good judgment not to keep putting yourself back in a situation where it's likely to happen - even if you've repented, even if you don't want to do it any more, because there is a real risk that you will end up stumbling. I had this problem with a particular sin a few years back: I didn't even want to do it (I felt for St Paul when he wrote that he kept finding himself doing bad stuff that he didn't want) but almost every time I was in that situation I ended up doing the same thing. Debating with myself over whether it was mortal or not wouldn't have helped me there. I realised that the only way to stop myself from falling into the same pit again and again was to stay away from the edge.

Now, this may not be applicable to you. Maybe you are no longer struggling with chastity. I know couples who used to have this problem but who then managed to repair their situation. In that case there is no pit to fall in - you've bridged it. I think it's just a question of being honest with yourself about your weaknesses.

Beyond that, I don't feel qualified to give dating much advice. I'm a single woman in a secular institute and all my dating experiences just pointed me in the direction of consecrated life. However, I think that "Does she make me want to be holier and more loving, and do I have the same inspiring effect on her?" are good questions to ask - they get to the heart of the matter, and they're fair, because you don't have to be with Ms Perfect (or be Mr Perfect yourself) for the answer to those questions to still be 'yes'.