Trump Banning Muslims

[MarysLittleFlower]

6 hours ago, Ice_nine said:

I don't think it really matters who is president. That's not really where the power lies. The power always lies with the people with the $$$ to lobby congress and change laws.

I think it was @Credo in Deum who posted a cool little video once about how the opinion of the 99% has absolutely no effect on the actual laws enacted but it sure does for the top 1%. I'm too lazy to find it again, but it was true story.

I think its probably true but doesn't this mean we should try even harder to not let anyone really bad win? In that way it does matter.. So I'd still vote but yes I think theres a lot of manipulation and its the people at the top who decide IMO 

In the end I'd never vote for a pro abortion politician because a country that kills its young and supports one of the most evil things in our day is really to be pitied. 

Edited December 10, 2015 by MarysLittleFlower

[Ark]

On December 8, 2015 at 6:20:46 AM, Era Might said:

If Christianity had not inherited the Roman empire, its ascendancy would have had to be brutal too. Building an empire is a brutal business, and the Romans were no choirboys.

I don't think this is true only because Christ's teachings were spiritual rather than worldly. There was an aggressive and violent element among Jews in Jesus' time concerned with overthrowing the Roman Empire but Jesus stood in contrast to that. 

Islam is a carnal religion on the other hand, personal industry is praised over ascetism/monasticism, and the idea of a worldly and spiritual sphere non existent. The state is a religion and Islam must be dominant. Some faiths can be tolerated but it's people must live under Islamic dominion. Thus the call to wage war against Christians and Jews until they are brought to submission and pay the jizya, a tax levied on conquered peoples, cf surah 9 verse 29. War is thus justified not just in defense but offensively as a means of spreading Islam. 

[Ark]

4 hours ago, HisChildForever said:

I don't understand why liberals go out of their way to praise and protect Islam but are quick to attack and vilify Christianity. Do they not realize that Islam is also a conservative faith with similar values as Chrisrianity on social issues like abortion and homosexual marriage? It seems that protecting Islam is the "in" thing to do in liberal circles and I don't get why.

Another interesting question is that if liberals represent an ideology that is contrary to Islamic values why do most Muslims vote them into power?

[dominicansoul]

Who our next president is definitely matters to planned parenthood.    

[Luigi]

The title - Trump Banning Muslims - and the whole national discussion are ludicrous.

1. Trump is not banning Muslims. He has called for it, but his calls are no more important than any other citizen's in this country.

2. He has no power to ban anyone, except to fire people on his television show, I guess.

3. He's a publicity whore, just like Jenner. He will say anything to anyone so as to get cameras turned in his direction. Which is pathetic. He needs mega-doses of professional counseling.

4. The media give him the attention he wants, which makes them pathetic, too. NPR hasn't reported on the annual Washington DC Pro-Life march for the couple of years; they simply ignore the many-thousand citizens who call for a change in public policy. But they give unlimited coverage to this one citizen calling for a change in public policy.

The whole thing makes me tired.

[Era Might]

9 hours ago, Ark said:

I don't think this is true only because Christ's teachings were spiritual rather than worldly. There was an aggressive and violent element among Jews in Jesus' time concerned with overthrowing the Roman Empire but Jesus stood in contrast to that. 

Islam is a carnal religion on the other hand, personal industry is praised over ascetism/monasticism, and the idea of a worldly and spiritual sphere non existent. The state is a religion and Islam must be dominant. Some faiths can be tolerated but it's people must live under Islamic dominion. Thus the call to wage war against Christians and Jews until they are brought to submission and pay the jizya, a tax levied on conquered peoples, cf surah 9 verse 29. War is thus justified not just in defense but offensively as a means of spreading Islam. 

But regardless of Jesus' teaching, Christianity too became a "carnal" religion as you put it. It inherited the Roman Empire and only became a worldly power when backed by an emperor. Constantine's famous cry was "in this sign I will conquer." It wasn't a spiritual conquest...it was an imperial conquest. While Jesus had no worldly kingdom, his followers did. Islam is not unique because it saw religion and society as one...it's impossible to have a religion in the strict sense without a society. The alternative is to be hunted and martyred like the early Christians...until Constantine united Cross and Sword.

Edited December 10, 2015 by Era Might

[MarysLittleFlower]

1 hour ago, Era Might said:

But regardless of Jesus' teaching, Christianity too became a "carnal" religion as you put it. It inherited the Roman Empire and only became a worldly power when backed by an emperor. Constantine's famous cry was "in this sign I will conquer." It wasn't a spiritual conquest...it was an imperial conquest. While Jesus had no worldly kingdom, his followers did. Islam is not unique because it saw religion and society as one...it's impossible to have a religion in the strict sense without a society. The alternative is to be hunted and martyred like the early Christians...until Constantine united Cross and Sword.

I don't think it's the same... I agree with Ark that Christianity is different from Islam but its also a Church teaching that Christianity needs to be in society. It just happens differently than in Islam. In Christianity its supposed to be a physical sign of an inward conversion not just something enforced externally through force. The Church is spiritual but it also has a visible component which is important theologically as an expression of the spiritual. That doesn't make it carnal because beyond that it is spiritual and not of the world. 

10 hours ago, Ark said:

I don't think this is true only because Christ's teachings were spiritual rather than worldly. There was an aggressive and violent element among Jews in Jesus' time concerned with overthrowing the Roman Empire but Jesus stood in contrast to that. 

Islam is a carnal religion on the other hand, personal industry is praised over ascetism/monasticism, and the idea of a worldly and spiritual sphere non existent. The state is a religion and Islam must be dominant. Some faiths can be tolerated but it's people must live under Islamic dominion. Thus the call to wage war against Christians and Jews until they are brought to submission and pay the jizya, a tax levied on conquered peoples, cf surah 9 verse 29. War is thus justified not just in defense but offensively as a means of spreading Islam. 

I agree but I also think that the visible component of the Church is an expression of the spiritual component. But of course this is not in a carnal or a worldly way, but a deeper way. 

[Ark]

11 hours ago, Era Might said:

But regardless of Jesus' teaching, Christianity too became a "carnal" religion as you put it. It inherited the Roman Empire and only became a worldly power when backed by an emperor. Constantine's famous cry was "in this sign I will conquer." It wasn't a spiritual conquest...it was an imperial conquest. While Jesus had no worldly kingdom, his followers did. Islam is not unique because it saw religion and society as one...it's impossible to have a religion in the strict sense without a society. The alternative is to be hunted and martyred like the early Christians...until Constantine united Cross and Sword.

As Christianity grew and the Roman Empire had succumb to Christ, there was a dilemma over applying Jesus' teaching to the wider context of the state. Christians historically were opposed to serving in the army and resigned the selves to quietly awaiting the Parousia which was underestimated. Eventually Augustine outlined the Just War hypothesis and Latin Christianity began to force it's old pagan traits unto Jesus' teachings but even then there is no comparison with Islam. We can debate  that these warlike developments in Christianity were contrary to Jesus message but the same cant be done with Islam.

War is intrinsically related with Islam, beginning when Muhammad first proposed raiding Mekkan caravans which led to his first battle, the battle of Badr. The Quran and Hadith explicitly enjoin offensive war. Authentic Hadith record that Muhammad named his sword the "spine cutter", to give you a glimpse into his character. To try to make Islam pacifist would be to render violence to it, since it would explicitly contradict its original and essential message.

christianity is not carnal as it recognizes superiority of spirit over matter and values asceticism and celibacy. Islam forbids monasticism and celibacy, but more to say on this later...

[Era Might]

On 12/10/2015, 11:01:54, Ark said:

As Christianity grew and the Roman Empire had succumb to Christ, there was a dilemma over applying Jesus' teaching to the wider context of the state. Christians historically were opposed to serving in the army and resigned the selves to quietly awaiting the Parousia which was underestimated. Eventually Augustine outlined the Just War hypothesis and Latin Christianity began to force it's old pagan traits unto Jesus' teachings but even then there is no comparison with Islam. We can debate  that these warlike developments in Christianity were contrary to Jesus message but the same cant be done with Islam.

War is intrinsically related with Islam, beginning when Muhammad first proposed raiding Mekkan caravans which led to his first battle, the battle of Badr. The Quran and Hadith explicitly enjoin offensive war. Authentic Hadith record that Muhammad named his sword the "spine cutter", to give you a glimpse into his character. To try to make Islam pacifist would be to render violence to it, since it would explicitly contradict its original and essential message.

christianity is not carnal as it recognizes superiority of spirit over matter and values asceticism and celibacy. Islam forbids monasticism and celibacy, but more to say on this later...

The entire Pentateuch is about the Israelites going on a Divine mission to conquer the Holy Land. It's true that the message of Jesus was not "warlike" in this sense, but that's because, as you note, Jesus was not creating a "religion." Islam is not pacifist...neither is Christianity (which is not synonymous with Jesus).

[Ark]

On 12/13/2015, 2:52:02, Era Might said:

The entire Pentateuch is about the Israelites going on a Divine mission to conquer the Holy Land. It's true that the message of Jesus was not "warlike" in this sense, but that's because, as you note, Jesus was not creating a "religion." Islam is not pacifist...neither is Christianity (which is not synonymous with Jesus).

The Pentateuch is something else entirely although it bears a closer resemblance to the Quran than the NT with regards to violence. I don't think Christianity (in the wider sense) can be compared to Islam which was founded by a war lord prophet. The Quran and Hadith explicitly promote war and it is understood by Muslims to be just as valid today as it was 1500 years ago.

"Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled."

Surah 9 verse 29

This verse is an open call to war against any non-Muslims, including Christians and Jews, until they are subdued under Islamic dominion. Faithful Muslims are obeying this command until this very day. 

[Era Might]

On 12/14/2015, 8:15:05, Ark said:

The Pentateuch is something else entirely although it bears a closer resemblance to the Quran than the NT with regards to violence. I don't think Christianity (in the wider sense) can be compared to Islam which was founded by a war lord prophet. The Quran and Hadith explicitly promote war and it is understood by Muslims to be just as valid today as it was 1500 years ago.

"Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled."

Surah 9 verse 29

This verse is an open call to war against any non-Muslims, including Christians and Jews, until they are subdued under Islamic dominion. Faithful Muslims are obeying this command until this very day. 

Every state has a religion. In modern times our state religion is nationalism, but previously, in Christianity as well as Islam, religion and state were united. I don't disagree with your point about Christianity and asceticism, but there would be no Christianity without the worldly business of the state. The verse you quoted is essentially the same as America fighting "Godless Communism" or the religious wars of Europe. You could argue that Islam needs to get in line with modern secularism (i.e., adopt nationalism as the state religion), but Christianity did not want to get in line with secularism until it became a fact. I think you're looking at Islam and Christianity theologically, but theology is not history. If you look at Islam historically, yes, of course it required war...every state requires war. The Christian kings of Europe fought to extend their Empires too. I guess the real "heresy" of Islam (in modern times) is its insistence that religion still matters...Christianity has already ceded its place to nationalism.