Pearl Harbor

[Era Might]

2 minutes ago, Anomaly said:

Maybe your version of Christianity.    Read CCC 2307-2327 on just war. It's a matter of prudential judgement of the political leaders if the thresholds and conditions are met.  4. "The use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modern means of destruction weighs heavily in the evaluating this condition"

What if it was expected that millions of civilians and military would die in an invasion and Japan's infrastructure throughput the country would be destroyed, effectively crippling all of Japan for generations with accompanying disease, starvation, and privations for tens of millions.    Keep in mind, Japan has already lost over 1,500,000 military and almost 500,000 civilians by conservative estimates.  

And they still pursued a war.  

I'm not Catholic. Regardless, your calculations illustrate why war is not a moral consideration, it's purely technical. Dressing it up in talk of good and evil is just after the fact rationalization. We have to justify it somehow, morality serves that purpose.

[Anomaly]

19 minutes ago, Era Might said:

I'm not Catholic. Regardless, your calculations illustrate why war is not a moral consideration, it's purely technical. Dressing it up in talk of good and evil is just after the fact rationalization. We have to justify it somehow, morality serves that purpose.

Sorry about you loss of religion again, Era.  

Its not just justification after the fact, unless you are judging history.  When that decision was made, it was in the context of NOW with limited ability to accurately foresee much of the consequences.   Lots of bad things can happen via actions of good intentions.  I'm sure Japan thought the greater good for Japanese would be served, more so than a desire to cause the deaths of millions of its citizens.  

[Era Might]

5 minutes ago, Anomaly said:

Sorry about you loss of religion again, Era.  

Its not just justification after the fact, unless you are judging history.  When that decision was made, it was in the context of NOW with limited ability to accurately foresee much of the consequences.   Lots of bad things can happen via actions of good intentions.  I'm sure Japan thought the greater good for Japanese would be served, more so than a desire to cause the deaths of millions of its citizens.  

Certainly, I agree of course that there was serious calculation whether or not to drop the bomb. I just don't see that as morally enlightened. Suppose the war could have been ended by killing one child or by raping one woman. To me, to even discuss the merits of such a solution is to admit that good and evil is meaningless. Warfare is warfare, a matter or force, tactics, strategy, etc. What I object to is just the idea that in conducting atomic warfare we're even trying to be Christian. I prefer to call it what it is, not draw sides of good and evil. No doubt the Abomb was in American interests....not so much on the interests of those on the ground. To put it in a different light, would youdrop the bomb on your own family, with the same calculations?

[darcy15]

I have had the privilege to visit both Pearl Harbor and Nagasaki

Was moved to tears in both places 

 

[Anomaly]

21 minutes ago, Era Might said:

Certainly, I agree of course that there was serious calculation whether or not to drop the bomb. I just don't see that as morally enlightened. Suppose the war could have been ended by killing one child or by raping one woman. To me, to even discuss the merits of such a solution is to admit that good and evil is meaningless. Warfare is warfare, a matter or force, tactics, strategy, etc. What I object to is just the idea that in conducting atomic warfare we're even trying to be Christian. I prefer to call it what it is, not draw sides of good and evil. No doubt the Abomb was in American interests....not so much on the interests of those on the ground. To put it in a different light, would youdrop the bomb on your own family, with the same calculations?

I would consider all options to be honest.   There is no single way to make ethical decisions.    The conditions required to sacrifice my family would have to be quite high with alternatives very limited.   If the loss of my family would save the lives of thousands, than I would have to examine if I'm being selfish sacrificing so many for a few?    Would I be burdening my family with immense guilt if I did so and they found out later?   I hope to never make that decision.  

You personally have to decide if you are ever morally permitted to use force.   I may disagree with your decision and respect it.   Again, it gets complicated when considering the effects on you, myself, others in the community.  Does it allow others to inflict their will by force?   Does passivity allow those who choose otherwise to dominate the weak?   It is too complicated to make blanket statements for specific incidents.   There are general principles that do establish guidelines.   We can discuss them as a society within religious and philosophical frameworks. 

Edited December 8, 2015 by Anomaly

[vee]

They shouldve just dropped the first nuke on Hirohito.

Not that much of Tokyo was left after the firebombing but still...

 

Then again I guess they needed him to call teh surrender. 

Oh well who cares its only Japan.

10 hours ago, PhuturePriest said:

 

There were many barbaric things that were committed by all countries during World War II (some obviously more than others,) so let's not call the Japanese insane barbarians when we committed our own atrocities.

they were!  They will even say they were nucking futs ie they thought they could control all of Asia AND take on the US, oh and treat everyone like croutons including their own people in the mean time.  They were insane, they were barbaric. 

Edited December 9, 2015 by vee
gaijin

[vee]

8 hours ago, Anomaly said:

  I'm sure Japan thought the greater good for Japanese would be served, more so than a desire to cause the deaths of millions of its citizens.  

They were nuts, they didnt care.  Everyone was ready to die.  Life was irrelevant.

[Ice_nine]

I'm not really a fan of calling other people/nations barbarians without seriously considering the sins of my own people, or my own nation. I probably feel the need to over compensate because people tend to blindly support "their side" whatever that may be. You defend the tribe you belong to I guess. And since we (notice how easy it is to say "we" and take credit for something you had nothing to do with) kicked so much @$$ in Japan and in Europe, we get to write the story. We get to rationalize our violence as necessary and brand their violence at barbarism. How do I know where the objective truth lies? Oh, you're American and you think American war tactics are justified? SHOCKING.

It's just boring. I want to love my country AND take seriously its flaws but I feel the need to turn into a critic when people gloss over how the destruction we caused is somehow morally superior to the destruction "they" caused. This usually devolves into insinuations that I'm a spoiled brat or something. Same dance. Over and over.

I guess it doesn't matter until someone you know is bleeding out of their eyeballs because some military technician found their death an acceptable sacrifice or even an acceptable expedient for some noble goal. Someone somewhere will shrug their shoulders and tell you it was the better option.

[Guest]

https://youtu.be/wLexUhHp4LM

[Nihil Obstat]

1 hour ago, vee said:

 

Oh well who cares its only Japan.

 

That is an appalling thing to say.

[dominicansoul]

My dad's generation were not barbarians.  They were heroes.  They didn't want this war but they beaver dam well finished it.  

 

 

and vee is japanadien, btw.  her head is stuffed with natto.  Lmao. 

[Maximilianus]

1 hour ago, dominicansoul said:

My dad's generation were not barbarians.  They were heroes.  They didn't want this war but they beaver dam well finished it.  

 

 

and vee is japanadien, btw.  her head is stuffed with natto.  Lmao. 

She substitutes cheese curds with natto in her poutine

[NadaTeTurbe]

And we're still waiting for Japan to apologize for all the horrible things that they did in China, such as the Nanking Massacre (300 000 chinese killed). Japanese nationalist are trying to re-write history about it. In 2013, Osaka's mayor, Toru Hashimoto, said that the sexual exploitation of Chinese women (for wich Japan have NOT apologize) was "necessary". The Japanese governement is very nationalist and far-right, and Japan is divided between nationalist (a noisy minority) and normal people. 

[dominicansoul]

Yes, Vee was telling me the japanese have a place......yasakuni shrine....where people still go to worship the WWII military dead.  Crazy.

[vee]

Yasukuni memorializes all war dead from about 1868 until 1951 I think.  Over two million people but the problem is there are just over 1 000 class A war criminals among those numbers.  Guys that were jsut as bad if not worse than the most famous Nazis you can think of.