Pearl Harbor

[dominicansoul]

"A day that will live in infamy..."

74 years ago today...

 

 

...  It seems wars never end...they just get more bloody and threaten more people ...

May the souls of the faithful departed through the mercy of God rest in peace...

[vee]

Stupid Japan

[Era Might]

1 hour ago, vee said:

Stupid Japan

No stupider than all the other countries with imperial ambitions (UK, Germany, Russia, USA, etc). Japan was just late to the game.

[CatherineM]

My oldest foster son's grandfather was on the West Virginia. The guys who were there that day are rapidly disappearing. A 20 year old then would be 94 now so that's not surprising. 

The important lesson the survivors I met at the VFW always wanted me to remember is that if we don't remember that we can be attacked, it will happen again. Not the attack themselves because there's nothing that we can do to prevent it, but the shock because we weren't ready. They were right. 

My main concern is also readiness. They started the school lunch program during WWII because so many recruits were unfit for service due to malnutrition. When my foster son signed up in 2002, the recruiter said 50% of high school seniors were unfit due to being overweight and 25% due to hearing loss. That doesn't sound like we'd be ready to fight a big war again. Now it's unfitness to serve because they've been babied to the point that the enemy would just have to throw trigger words at them. 

[PhuturePriest]

My great grandfather was on one of the ships. I don't know much about his story, because he didn't like talking about it to others.

[vee]

 Their attack on the U.S really benefited them in the end with the American occupation rather than the commie Russians.

[SaintOfVirtue]

7 hours ago, CatherineM said:

Now it's unfitness to serve because they've been babied to the point that the enemy would just have to throw trigger words at them. 

If it is American forces you speak of this is simply not true.  Full out screaming-reaming's still happen when necessary and the vast majority of us hammer the weak spots in ourselves and others as soon as we spot them.  It's debatable whether the general public would be fit to fight should the homeland face invasion; but seeing as America's hunters (i.e. civilians) alone are the third largest armed force in the world, invasion is tactically unfeasible, an attacking country would most likely try to bomb us to oblivion before ever attempting a boots-on-ground invasion.  Yet, they wouldn't dare bomb us because the United States still has the ultimate dooms-day weapon: the Ohio Class Submarine.  As a last resort or only when lesser means have failed or cannot be reasonably employed an Ohio Class submarine can destroy a country in less time than it takes to deliver a pizza.  Even if the general public is soft, the armed forces are as strong as ever.  The power to destroy a country is not entrusted to soft pushovers.

[dominicansoul]

15 hours ago, vee said:

Stupid Japan

Stupid just doesn't fit.  More like Barbaric Insane Japan.  More like Godless Japan.  The horrible things they did to our POWs should never be forgotten...

 

12 hours ago, CatherineM said:

My oldest foster son's grandfather was on the West Virginia. The guys who were there that day are rapidly disappearing. A 20 year old then would be 94 now so that's not surprising. 

The important lesson the survivors I met at the VFW always wanted me to remember is that if we don't remember that we can be attacked, it will happen again. Not the attack themselves because there's nothing that we can do to prevent it, but the shock because we weren't ready. They were right. 

My main concern is also readiness. They started the school lunch program during WWII because so many recruits were unfit for service due to malnutrition. When my foster son signed up in 2002, the recruiter said 50% of high school seniors were unfit due to being overweight and 25% due to hearing loss. That doesn't sound like we'd be ready to fight a big war again. Now it's unfitness to serve because they've been babied to the point that the enemy would just have to throw trigger words at them. 

That generation was tough, devout and patriotic.  so many of them were green like my dad, but they had a strong will and were determined to bring down the Axis powers.    This generation?  Well, Like Saint of Virtue says, they would be whipped into shape real fast... It's more difficult today too because there isn't a main target, terrorists are everywhere even here.  Like Shape-Shifters from the tv show Fringe, you don't know who your enemy is because they look like your neighbor, your coworker, your friend...and of course political correctness makes things ludicrous.

When I read WWII history and look back at what my dad did....those teen soldiers were able to accomplish a great many things.  I'm pretty sure it had a lot to do with the fact those soldiers were backed by prayers.  His mom prayed til her rosaries broke.  she had one son in the European theatre and another son in the Pacific.  She was Spanish, so you know she prayed every novena in the history of the church. she gave my dad a little medal of St. Jude that he wore with his dog tags (he gave these to me a few years ago and I treasure them.  They still have the tiny little medal which is worn down.)  My mother was a lot younger at that time.  She was carefree with no thought to what was going on in the world.  She didn't hear about Pearl Harbor until later that evening when they listened to shows on the radio.  That next week at Catholic School, she said the nuns were in tears and classes  were spent praying in the church.  This brutal attack shocked the nation.  We had tried so hard to stay out of the war, but it came knocking on our back door...I can imagine the reaction was something like the reaction to the Twin Towers coming down.  Everybody was numb.  Patriotism ran high and our churches were filled to the brim...not just for a few days or weeks, but years.  The nation united in an effort to combat the enemy.  

Sadly, there is too much division these days.  People are more tuned into themselves rather than others.  Every little thing offends them.  Gives more meaning to the words,  "divided we fall."  Not saying there wasn't division back then, but there was something else that is missing today:  love for our country.  Every group, White, Black, Mexican, Asian loved this country and cherished it!  They were willing to die for it...can't say that for your average teen in America today...     

[CatherineM]

I wasn't talking about current members of the armed forces. They are actually our hope of a decent future. I was talking about college kids who can't sit through an American history lecture where the word slavery is used because it makes them feel bad. In a big war where we would depend on the majority to fight, we'd be in trouble. The minority of young people who understand service and adversity are going to rule the world someday. 

DS-my Dad wore two rosaries around his neck. He survived two plane crashes, one into the ocean, two behind the line parachute drops, and a stint as a POW. Survived without a scratch. They did torture him and broke his teeth as a prisoner, and he suffered from PTSD, but he came home without physical scars, missing limbs, etc. He certainly understood the power of prayer. 

[PhuturePriest]

3 hours ago, dominicansoul said:

Stupid just doesn't fit.  More like Barbaric Insane Japan.  More like Godless Japan.  The horrible things they did to our POWs should never be forgotten...

Never forget that we destroyed two cities of innocent civilians. Truman should have been tried for war crimes, but he wasn't because it seems the belief was war crimes could only be committed by the Axis powers. 

There were many barbaric things that were committed by all countries during World War II (some obviously more than others,) so let's not call the Japanese insane barbarians when we committed our own atrocities.

[elizabeth09]

The attack on pearl harbor was the start of us fighting in the war.  It was not till then when we really enter. 

[dominicansoul]

I am against the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, but the strong belief at that time (not looking back 70 years in 2015) was if we didn't do something drastic millions of more humans would die, especially our young marines who were assigned this mission to take on the Japanese on their own turf.  There was no appeasing the japanese military who would even kill themselves in gruesome ways before surrendering to their enemies...and they expected their civilians to fight to the death (and many were ready to do that as well.)  We not only bombed them once (with no surrender from them) we had to do it twice before they finally got past their barbaric egos and surrendered.

 

I don't know..."barbaric Marines on iowa jima" doesn't sound as good...

 

"Heroic Marines?"  Way better!

[Anomaly]

18 minutes ago, PhuturePriest said:

Never forget that we destroyed two cities of innocent civilians. Truman should have been tried for war crimes, but he wasn't because it seems the belief was war crimes could only be committed by the Axis powers. 

There were many barbaric things that were committed by all countries during World War II (some obviously more than others,) so let's not call the Japanese insane barbarians when we committed our own atrocities.

Look up and read more about targeting civilians by bombing during WW2.   It was a tactic that Germany initiated and the Allies eventually adopted as the war progressed.   The US was the last to adopt it as a tactical policy.  Read up on LeMay.  It was thought to be a lessor if the evils when considering the long drawn out war that was so demanding if the people and economies of the nations.  More people died in bombings of Tokyo in the months prior to the A-Bomb on Nagasaki and the Jabonese refused to disengage from war.   

Its debatable whether dropping the A Bomb saved more lives than it took or even limited the possible destruction of Japan in pursuing the war.   We have the luxury and responsibility to look back on history and voice opinions.  However, it is also our responsibility to attempt to honestly consider the knowledge, experiences, responsibilities, and circumstances of the people making the decisions.  It's ignorant to claim Truman committed a war crime without considering the evolved tactics near the end of a war that over 60,000,000 (60 Million) have died, over 30 Million were Allied civilians.  It's not hard to google that info.  

Was it a right decision?  That is something that needs to be discussed even today.   Was it with evil intent?  No, I don't think so.  But it is possible it may have been a huge mistake but the context of the time needs to be understood lest we commit a similar mistake by analyzing current circumstances with polarized blinders.  

[Era Might]

If Christian civilization doesn't even preclude atomic warfare, then I think it's meaningless to speak of "evil intent" on any side. The ends justify the means.

[Anomaly]

33 minutes ago, Era Might said:

If Christian civilization doesn't even preclude atomic warfare, then I think it's meaningless to speak of "evil intent" on any side. The ends justify the means.

Maybe your version of Christianity.    Read CCC 2307-2327 on just war. It's a matter of prudential judgement of the political leaders if the thresholds and conditions are met.  4. "The use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modern means of destruction weighs heavily in the evaluating this condition"

What if it was expected that millions of civilians and military would die in an invasion and Japan's infrastructure throughput the country would be destroyed, effectively crippling all of Japan for generations with accompanying disease, starvation, and privations for tens of millions.    Keep in mind, Japan has already lost over 1,500,000 military and almost 500,000 civilians by conservative estimates.  

And they still pursued a war.