Do you believe in a literal Adam and Eve and a perfect world with no death prior to the alleged fall?

[HisChildForever]

On December 4, 2015 at 10:44:42 AM, Josh said:

What about dinosaurs?

Human beings are the glory of God's creation. Animals are subject to humans. Therefore, I think it's plausible to believe that animals were always mortal.

Josh, also remember that in the times when Genesis was recorded, human beings had a very limited understanding of science, so God chose a simple way to get the message across. God likes to interact with us in simple terms because we can only comprehend so much, even now when we have the technology and means to expand our view of the universe.

20 hours ago, Josh said:

Reality isn't a 6000 y/o earth created by an old Caucasian white haired bearded God. Yet many Christians believe this to be "reality".

I know this might sound crazy, but: let them. They're on a spiritual journey toward Christ, just like you and I. To them, that belief is very much real. Maybe it will change, maybe it won't.

[Seven77]

 Like HCF, I also think it's very plausible that animals and plants were not created to be immortal. Think about it, God tells Adam and Eve that they will die if they eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. After they eat of the fruit, they experience spiritual death immediately… but they will now eventually experience physical death as well.  When God commanded them not to eat it and that they would die if they did, Adam and Eve would've been like, “death? what is that?"  unless of course they had an idea of what death was--- from the plants and animals that died. Also it makes sense that human beings were created to be immortal because God breathed life into them. And humanity was set apart from animals and the rest of creation as the pinnacle of creation ( “very good,” as opposed to “good”).  Thanks @HisChildForever, for that very well thought out response to Josh's honest question.

 @Josh, I think it's a reasonable question to ask… you're really thinking things out and I think that's great. God made us with reason, right? I think that He delights when we ask big questions because we are using the gifts that he gave us to ask them. You know, your post gave me the opportunity to think about death before the fall...  I'm not sure that I ever stopped to think about how the dinosaurs died before  “death came into the world,” as St. Paul put it. It seems that he was talking about human death. Anyway, I went looking for some answers and I found 2 links that were helpful:

Jimmy Akin says that man would've been mortal, in the beginning, by nature--- unless of course God bestowed the gift of immortality upon man. So, man lost the gift at the Fall. This makes perfect sense, because Jesus comes to give us the ability to partake in his divine nature and restores us to the possibility oof immortality. And he also points out that when Adam and Eve ate the fruit's of the garden (before the fall) those fruits--- died:

http://www.ncregister.com/blog/jimmy-akin/did-animals-die-before-the-fall

Matt Fradd takes it further:

http://www.catholic.com/blog/matt-fradd/was-there-death-before-the-fall

[Archaeology cat]

Well said, @HisChildForever and @Seven77. I think that makes a lot of sense.

[Credo in Deum]

1 hour ago, Seven77 said:

 Like HCF, I also think it's very plausible that animals and plants were not created to be immortal. Think about it, God tells Adam and Eve that they will die if they eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. After they eat of the fruit, they experience spiritual death immediately… but they will now eventually experience physical death as well.  When God commanded them not to eat it and that they would die if they did, Adam and Eve would've been like, “death? what is that?"  unless of course they had an idea of what death was--- from the plants and animals that died. Also it makes sense that human beings were created to be immortal because God breathed life into them. And humanity was set apart from animals and the rest of creation as the pinnacle of creation ( “very good,” as opposed to “good”).  Thanks @HisChildForever, for that very well thought out response to Josh's honest question.

 @Josh, I think it's a reasonable question to ask… you're really thinking things out and I think that's great. God made us with reason, right? I think that He delights when we ask big questions because we are using the gifts that he gave us to ask them. You know, your post gave me the opportunity to think about death before the fall...  I'm not sure that I ever stopped to think about how the dinosaurs died before  “death came into the world,” as St. Paul put it. It seems that he was talking about human death. Anyway, I went looking for some answers and I found 2 links that were helpful:

Jimmy Akin says that man would've been mortal, in the beginning, by nature--- unless of course God bestowed the gift of immortality upon man. So, man lost the gift at the Fall. This makes perfect sense, because Jesus comes to give us the ability to partake in his divine nature and restores us to the possibility oof immortality. And he also points out that when Adam and Eve ate the fruit's of the garden (before the fall) those fruits--- died:

http://www.ncregister.com/blog/jimmy-akin/did-animals-die-before-the-fall

Matt Fradd takes it further:

http://www.catholic.com/blog/matt-fradd/was-there-death-before-the-fall

 

[Ice_nine]

I was told that since God was outside of time the fall of man retroactively brought death into all creation. It was explained much better than that but it worked for me.

The adam and eve stuff, there's a little cognitive dissonance over that. There was a journal article that I read about halfway. Really kinda dense for a moron like me, but I'll try to find it later and post.

[Guest]

Thanks for the replies. I want to address some of them. Also I was being a little bit prideful in those post. I only have a ged and don't know where commas go so many would consider me unintelligent. I like this meme

[Guest]

https://youtu.be/fnHY1cC9a4A

[Norseman82]

On Friday, December 04, 2015 2:49:05, Ash Wednesday said:

I'm thinking of asking dUSt to change the name of the Debate Table to the Josh Board. A lot of his threads end up there. Or give it a good sniff, anyway.

Which adds a whole new meaning to the term "You're Joshing me"...

[Selah]

4 hours ago, Norseman82 said:

Which adds a whole new meaning to the term "You're Joshing me"...

This is my new favorite thing.

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

I literaly believe in adam and eve but that there where other tribes outside of the garden of eden as genisis states. And i also believe the world was never perfect and sin existed but just wasn't recognized as sin as the bible states.

I can only recommend that you 'Read you bibles.' 

 

The other tribes outside of eden where perhaps homo erectus and have since been bred into the family of homo saipian.

On 12/5/2015, 3:25:31, MarysLittleFlower said:

 

yes I'll just trust the Church more. Human reason is not infallible, the Church is infallible. It's a doctrine they were real people. For me that's case closed.

Wrong.  The church is not infallible though there are variations of infallibility in the holy magesterium and ex cathedra are infallible statements, and there are numerous infallible statements made outside of the holy magesterium and ex cathedra that arent recognised as infallible though are. But the church absolutely infallible, no, that would be God you are thinking of we are merely the body and he is the Head, and the body can get various diseases that block it from listening to the head kind of thing.

*various diseases in different members(arm,finger,eye etc) that though perhaps not deliberately but inequivecaly act contrary to the head/mind of God."

Edited December 7, 2015 by Tab'le De'Bah-Rye
Homo erectus

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

On 12/5/2015, 5:39:10, Josh said:

You can doubt my Church Militant tag. I'm a mess. I never claim not to be. I struggle with porn and lust. With keeping in touch with family. A bunch of other things. I also don't like a lot of Christians. Can't stand a lot of them actually. I think some of them(or a lot) are really unintelligent also. It's like they hate science and reality. A lot of them are racist. Not all. As far as this thread I'm wondering what people's real thoughts are? Adam and Eve were literally two people who ALL humans came from? Okay. Science says that's not so but I'm willing to hear other views. Was there death before Adam and Eve? Or evil? So how did dinosaurs die before humans were ever here? Why can they trace cancer back to dinosaurs? Is cancer some neutral thing that's neither good or evil? It's clearly evil. So these are questions I have. I believe in God and Christ. Although I'm not just going to cover my eyes, plug my ears and ignore reality. If Catholicism is the absolute truth it should be able to answer these questions or if they can't answer them address them. Which I think they do. Or I wouldn't be Catholic. 

 

 

how is death evil? This thought line worries me Josh that perhaps you are leaning back onto your alcoholic ego and reasoning that you are God and know better than God. Remember the triangle of self obsession we learn at A.A, and that no matter what science or the church says the fact is you may actually be wrong with any given thing, as we all could be except matters of absolute infallibility designated by the church and there arent many of those. 

Here is a saying that the holy spirit gave to me and this is not directed at Josh though josh i hope you take heed with the full understanding that i love you dearly as does Jesus. " Conviction is not always being right, it is the blessed assurance of heaven to those who are baptised, repent, believe in the good news and follow the way to the best of there knowledge and understanding of what that means." And i wish you all would take heed to this statement and chillax.

 

LUV YUZ 

 

GodblesS.

Edited December 7, 2015 by Tab'le De'Bah-Rye

[chrysostom]

Is the earth 6000 years old?  I can walk outside and if the sky is in the right condition I can see the Andromeda Galaxy with the naked eye, something like 2.5 million light years away.  With a good amateur telescope I could spot quasar 3C 273 which is over 2 billion light years away.

The nature of things - the way in which stars, trees, bacteria, etc, grow from the dead remnants of their kind - indicates that mortality is built in to nature.

Nevertheless I believe it is theologically important to hold that there was a real Adam and Eve - and that had they not made the choice to sin they would not have died.  I don't know what path nature would have taken at that point.  C.S. Lewis meditates on the consequences of that in Perelandra.  It's an interesting take.  Genetic or pathological connections between humans and other animals don't bother me.  However it happened, it happened.  

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

The conscious earth im gueassing is about 5000 years old, and we are about to open the sixth scroll. Perhaps, lol. IDK. As in established writings though there was speech before than we had not the intelligence to take records. Record taking the last 50 years has become mega acute due to our advancements recently in the technological front. Give it another 100 years and i bet we enter into that 1000 years of peace between science and religion.

Edited December 7, 2015 by Tab'le De'Bah-Rye

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

And also Josh and anyone else that struggles with it the cure that i have found for lust is daily meditating on the mysteries of the rosary, daily reading holy scripture and holy mass more than just sundays,plus regular confession until the attack is abated. Oh yeah plus some kind of devotion to saint joseph, my devotion to him is very simple i just ad "st joseph pray for us" after the fatima prayer at the end of each decade of the holy rosary.

[Guest]

On 12/4/2015 8:14:18, Josh said:

Physicist have theories dealing with quantum physics and how time works. In their theories Adam and Eve could of lived in a perfect world then at the time of the fall a back history was laid out as they slipped from the Heaven reality to the fallen reality we find ourselves in now. The big bang only happens when observers trace it back through consciousness. So evolution does happen but time doesn't flow from the big bang until now. The arrow of time is an allusion. Nothing exist until it's measured/observed. 

https://youtu.be/4C5pq7W5yRM