Do you believe in a literal Adam and Eve and a perfect world with no death prior to the alleged fall?

[Papist]

15 minutes ago, Josh said:

I'm just asking honest questions. If I can't ask those with a tag that says Church Militant then I'm happy to have it removed. For the record I believe and accept every thing the Church teaches. I believe in Adam and Eve. Although I believe there's some depth to it and it goes deeper then sin and a talking snake. I read a lot of stuff from Christians and Catholics that I whole heartedly disagree with. Especially when they throw science out the window and are ready to burn people at the stake who think intelligence is important and a good thing that shouldn't be cast aside because it appears threatening.

Not doubting your CM tag. Just confused. When asking a poll question, if is helpful to know why the asking and what is your viewpoint.  The way this thread went it seemed that you were baiting trying to get to evolution and using belief in a real Adam and Eve as the bait.

Edited December 4, 2015 by Papist

[Guest]

20 minutes ago, Papist said:

Not doubting your CM tag. Just confused. When asking a poll question, if is helpful to know why the asking and what is your viewpoint.  The way this thread went it seemed that you were baiting trying to get to evolution and using belief in a real Adam and Eve.

You can doubt my Church Militant tag. I'm a mess. I never claim not to be. I struggle with porn and lust. With keeping in touch with family. A bunch of other things. I also don't like a lot of Christians. Can't stand a lot of them actually. I think some of them(or a lot) are really unintelligent also. It's like they hate science and reality. A lot of them are racist. Not all. As far as this thread I'm wondering what people's real thoughts are? Adam and Eve were literally two people who ALL humans came from? Okay. Science says that's not so but I'm willing to hear other views. Was there death before Adam and Eve? Or evil? So how did dinosaurs die before humans were ever here? Why can they trace cancer back to dinosaurs? Is cancer some neutral thing that's neither good or evil? It's clearly evil. So these are questions I have. I believe in God and Christ. Although I'm not just going to cover my eyes, plug my ears and ignore reality. If Catholicism is the absolute truth it should be able to answer these questions or if they can't answer them address them. Which I think they do. Or I wouldn't be Catholic. 

 

 

Edited December 4, 2015 by Guest

[Papist]

14 minutes ago, Josh said:

You can doubt my Church Militant tag. I'm a mess. I never claim not to be. I struggle with porn and lust. With keeping in touch with family. A bunch of other things. I also don't like a lot of Christians. Can't stand a lot of them actually. I think some of them(or a lot) are really unintelligent also. It's like they hate science and reality. A lot of them are racist. Not all. As far as this thread I'm wondering what people's real thoughts are? Adam and Eve were literally two people who ALL humans came from? Okay. Science says that's not so but I'm willing to hear other views. Was there death before Adam and Eve? Or evil? So how did dinosaurs die before humans were ever here? Why can they trace cancer back to dinosaurs? Is cancer some neutral thing that's neither good or evil? It's clearly evil. So these are questions I have. I believe in God and Christ. Although I'm not just going to cover my eyes, plug my ears and ignore reality. If Catholicism is the absolute truth it should be able to answer these questions or if they can't answer them address them. Which I think they do. Or I wouldn't be Catholic. 

 

 

Reality. Hmmmm.

[Guest]

23 minutes ago, Papist said:

Reality. Hmmmm.

Reality isn't a 6000 y/o earth created by an old Caucasian white haired bearded God. Yet many Christians believe this to be "reality".

[Papist]

4 minutes ago, Josh said:

Reality isn't a 6000 y/o earth created by an old Caucasian white haired bearded God. Yet many Christians believe this to be "reality".

This your collective assessment or people actually told you this using these exact words?   I find it incredibly amazing that you have met "many" that believe this. All the Christians I have met in my long life I have yet to hear such from them. 

[Spem in alium]

1 minute ago, Josh said:

Reality isn't a 6000 y/o earth created by an old Caucasian white haired bearded God. Yet many Christians believe this to be "reality".

This is only "reality" for some because of what culture, particularly art, has historically sought to present and perpetuate.

As for Adam and Eve, yes, I believe they were real people living in a world with no death. God is light, and in Him there is no darkness (1 John 1:5). Thus, He cannot create anything bad. Death was not created by God, but came about as a result of people making the wrong choices. 
As for evolution, I'm not completely against it. We know from scientific discovery that particular species have adapted and changed in order to survive, so in a sense they do "evolve". My support of evolution only goes as far as it can be connected with God. God's handiwork and mastery is in all of creation, so I don't see how we can look at the world and all its beauty and mystery without considering God at all.

 

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, Spem in alium said:

This is only "reality" for some because of what culture, particularly art, has historically sought to present and perpetuate.

As for Adam and Eve, yes, I believe they were real people living in a world with no death. God is light, and in Him there is no darkness (1 John 1:5). Thus, He cannot create anything bad. Death was not created by God, but came about as a result of people making the wrong choices. 
As for evolution, I'm not completely against it. We know from scientific discovery that particular species have adapted and changed in order to survive, so in a sense they do "evolve". My support of evolution only goes as far as it can be connected with God. God's handiwork and mastery is in all of creation, so I don't see how we can look at the world and all its beauty and mystery without considering God at all.

 

So what's your view on dinosaurs? How did they die if there was no death? They came way before humans. They also link cancer back to them. Like I said earlier if this story is complete reality and not allegorical in a way then there has to be an answer. One theory would be quantum physics. How time could of flowed backwards at the fall. There's all kinds of stuff in the Old Testament that gets treated as allegorical. Was there really fire breathing dragons? I saw a Catholic adamantly defending that idea and saying you were a heretic if you didn't agree. I feel like a bunch of Christians shun intelligent people. Tell them oh well you're going to hell. You're wrong. My Bible says your wrong. Some of these Christians are complete idiots. Not borderline idiots but just plain stupid. They shun intelligence and beaver dam anyone to hell who possesses it or tries to acquire it. 

Edited December 4, 2015 by Guest

[Spem in alium]

12 minutes ago, Josh said:

So what's your view on dinosaurs? How did they die if there was no death? They came way before humans. They also link cancer back to them. Like I said earlier if this story is complete reality and not allegorical in a way then there has to be an answer. One theory would be quantum physics. How time could of flowed backwards at the fall. There's all kinds of stuff in the Old Testament that gets treated as allegorical. Was there really fire breathing dragons? I saw a Catholic adamantly defending that idea and saying you were a heretic if you didn't agree. I feel like a bunch of Christians shun intelligent people. Tell them oh well you're going to hell. You're wrong. My Bible says your wrong. Some of these Christians are complete idiots. Not borderline idiots but just plain stupid. They shun intelligence and beaver dam anyone to hell who possesses it or tries to acquire it. 

The Bible makes it clear that death came about as a result of man's free choice. God did not create death; it was the consequence of Adam and Eve's sin. As for dinosaurs, there is evidence to show they existed, but as for how they died, I do not have an answer. There are many things we do not, and likely cannot, know about that time, though we consistently strive to know and interpret things we cannot completely understand.

Yes, the Bible does include allegory, but I do not think this extends to Adam and Eve. We read that man was created in God's image and likeness. This is not simply in appearance, but more so as a reflection of what God is: love. This is something evolutionary theory cannot possibly endeavour to understand or explain. 

Just one question, are you arguing that being a person of faith is incompatible with being intelligent?

 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Spem in alium said:

The Bible makes it clear that death came about as a result of man's free choice. God did not create death; it was the consequence of Adam and Eve's sin. As for dinosaurs, there is evidence to show they existed, but as for how they died, I do not have an answer. There are many things we do not, and likely cannot, know about that time, though we consistently strive to know and interpret things we cannot completely understand.

 

 

How could they die if the world was perfect and there was no death? How can they trace cancer back to them?

2 minutes ago, Spem in alium said:

 

Just one question, are you arguing that being a person of faith is incompatible with being intelligent?

 

Not at all. There are many people of faith who are intelligent. I love watching the debate where Craig destroys Hitchens.

[Spem in alium]

Just now, Josh said:

How could they die if the world was perfect and there was no death? How can they trace cancer back to them?

I don't know about the cancer issue, and I mentioned earlier that I can't explain the death of the dinosaurs. I don't have that knowledge.

All I am going on is what is written in Scripture, that by man came death. If this is not the truth, then what is the point of anything else God does throughout history? What is the point of the Incarnation?

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Spem in alium said:

I don't know about the cancer issue, and I mentioned earlier that I can't explain the death of the dinosaurs. I don't have that knowledge.

All I am going on is what is written in Scripture, that by man came death. If this is not the truth, then what is the point of anything else God does throughout history? What is the point of the Incarnation?

The point would be to forgive evil people for evil acts. The story being allegorical in some sense doesn't change that. (Not saying I don't believe in Adam and Eve)

[Ash Wednesday]

I'm thinking of asking dUSt to change the name of the Debate Table to the Josh Board. A lot of his threads end up there. Or give it a good sniff, anyway.

[Spem in alium]

1 hour ago, Josh said:

The point would be to forgive evil people for evil acts. The story being allegorical in some sense doesn't change that. (Not saying I don't believe in Adam and Eve)

But look at John 3:16. It is through God's love and in His love that Jesus is sent -- and Scripture does not say that Jesus comes to forgive our evil acts, but to help us turn back to God so that all who believe in Him may have eternal life. Jesus came for all people for all time, not just for those who do evil, and there are many points in Scripture that show this. Why do we think Jesus is described as "the new Adam"? It is because He came to vanquish death and sin, which was brought into the world by Adam and Eve. 

On the contrary; while some aspects of the story may be more figurative than others, if the story itself is allegorical it affects all that follows it. 

[dominicansoul]

8 hours ago, Josh said:

You're one of the Best Catholics Of All Time. Feel honored.

At least I'm not a puppet who doesn't accept evolution and thinks the earth is 6000 years old 

Catholics dont believe the earth is 6000 years old by the way...

when the Pope speaks of evolution, its not the atheistic view of evolution.  God is the creator.  Adam and Eve were our first parents.  We dont have to take literall a creation of 7 24 hour days, God could have easily done that but for Him a day is like a thousand years and a thousand years a day.  God could have put an entire era into one day if he wanted to.  The dinosaurs could have had their entire existence summed up before the sin of adam and eve and destroyed so they wouldnt hurt humans after the fall.  Who really knows?  Only God.  Scientist can guess.  Their findings about such things are never conclusive are they?  One decade they say one thing and another decade its something else i.e. In the 70s they warned continously ad naseum about global cooling and the coming of another ice age and now suddenly its global warming... They find fossils of an old ape and call it our human ancestors...maybe we were just extra hairy back then??  Lol.  

 

 

 

Edited December 5, 2015 by dominicansoul
Wrong halo emote

[vee]

2 minutes ago, dominicansoul said:

:halo:

you mean   or

btw I believe in threads with shorter titles than this!