Do you believe in a literal Adam and Eve and a perfect world with no death prior to the alleged fall?

[little2add]

DO YOU BELIEVE IN A LITERAL BABY JESUS

[KnightofChrist]

The trouble with science is that it cannot explain many parts of the Faith, not just Adam and Eve.

"Science" says that a man cannot die and rise again three days later.

"Science" says that bread and wine cannot become the body and blood of Christ while still under the appearance of bread and wine.

"Science" says that a virgin birth amongst humans is not possible.

I could go on but I won't bother. If Adam and Eve are nothing but myths because "science", which can only see things in the physical empirical world, then all of Christianity is a myth.

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Era Might said:

I just mean the whole assumption that man was created directly by God and fell from perfection. Man is an evolved animal, not a lapsed masterpiece.

I was thinking about that a few hours ago. How in the very literal sense we are animals. It becomes more clear when you see how often people behave like animals. Do you believe God purposely created man through evolution?

4 minutes ago, KnightofChrist said:

 

I could go on but I won't bother. If Adam and Eve are nothing but myths because "science", which can only see things in the physical empirical world, then all of Christianity is a myth.

I don't see why the Adam and Eve story couldn't be allegorical. Or take place in another reality.

Edited December 4, 2015 by Guest

[KnightofChrist]

6 minutes ago, Josh said:

Do you believe in evolution?

I neither believe in or deny it. I believe it possible, but I remain open to other possibilities even other theories of evolution rather than just Darwin's.

6 minutes ago, Josh said:

I don't see why the Adam and Eve story couldn't be allegorical. Or take place in another reality.

But the Church teaches there were real persons. If they are just allegorical then the Church is wrong. I don't know what you mean by another reality.

[Era Might]

11 minutes ago, Josh said:

I was thinking about that a few hours ago. How in the very literal sense we are animals. It becomes more clear when you see how often people behave like animals. Do you believe God purposely created man through evolution?

I don't believe in a personal God, but I agree with what KoC says above...once you discredit Adam and Eve, you're basically discrediting the traditional theological worldview. Clearly the church accepts evolution, and there is a way to reconcile the myth with evolution if you argue that man became "man" when he first was able to recognize God (Ratzinger made this argument in a book I read), but the whole idea of reconciling science and the traditional Christian worldview is not convincing to me. I think Christianity, like all religions, was an attempt to understand the world and give it meaning, not a revelation from a God. 

Edited December 4, 2015 by Era Might

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, KnightofChrist said:

I neither believe in or deny it. I believe it possible, but I remain open to other possibilities even other theories of evolution rather than just Darwin's.

Physicist have theories dealing with quantum physics and how time works. In their theories Adam and Eve could of lived in a perfect world then at the time of the fall a back history was laid out as they slipped from the Heaven reality to the fallen reality we find ourselves in now. The big bang only happens when observers trace it back through consciousness. So evolution does happen but time doesn't flow from the big bang until now. The arrow of time is an allusion. Nothing exist until it's measured/observed. Some believers have a problem with this because they think it makes God appear deceptive.

7 minutes ago, Era Might said:

I don't believe in a personal God, but I agree with what KoC says above...once you discredit Adam and Eve, you're basically discrediting the traditional theological worldview. Clearly the church accepts evolution, and there is a way to reconcile the myth with evolution if you argue that man became "man" when he first was able to recognize God (Ratzinger made this argument in a book I read), but the whole idea of reconciling science and the traditional Christian worldview is not convincing to me. I think Christianity, like all religions, was an attempt to understand the world and give it meaning, not a revelation from a God. 

You're a Diest? What is your beliefs on Christ?

Edited December 4, 2015 by Guest

[MarysLittleFlower]

30 minutes ago, Era Might said:

No, I don't see how the mythology accords with the reality of the world's evolution, unless you read the myth not literally, but in that case it becomes a theological problem.

the Church is very clear that Adam and Eve were literal real people. If that contradicts some scientific *theory* then the theory is mistaken, not the Church. Science is not infallible and changes all the time. the Church doesn't change.

[Guest]

Just now, MarysLittleFlower said:

the Church is very clear that Adam and Eve were literal real people. If that contradicts some scientific *theory* then the theory is mistaken, not the Church. Science is not infallible and changes all the time. the Church doesn't change.

Evolution is not just some "scientific theory"  Don't be ignorant.

[dominicansoul]

A Nashville Dominican teacher once told me, "Don't ever let anybody tell you Adam and Eve weren't real people"

I think I trust her more than most of you all on phatmass.  lol.

 

 

[KnightofChrist]

3 minutes ago, Josh said:

Physicist have theories dealing with quantum physics and how time works. In there theories Adam and Eve could of lived in a perfect world then at the time of the fall a back history was laid out as they slipped from the Heaven reality to the fallen reality we find ourselves in now. The big bang only happens when observers trace it back through consciousness. So evolution does happen but time doesn't flow from the big bang until now. The arrow of time is an allusion. Nothing exist until it's measured/observed. Some believers have a problem with this because they think it makes God appear deceptive.

Oh, ok so a Schrödinger's cat kind of thing. Or if a tree falls in the woods and there's no one there to observe it does it exist at all?

 

[MarysLittleFlower]

39 minutes ago, Josh said:

What about dinosaurs?

I'm wondering if it was just humans who were immortal? anyways we don't know, maybe dinosaurs disappeared after the fall.

Catholic Answers article though says that the passage is talking about human death. I wonder if there's a Church teaching on that.

[Guest]

Just now, KnightofChrist said:

Oh, ok so a Schrödinger's cat kind of thing. Or if a tree falls in the woods and there's no one there to observe it does it exist at all?

 

Yeah it's really interesting stuff. You're familiar with the double slit experiment?

[MarysLittleFlower]

4 minutes ago, Josh said:

Evolution is not just some "scientific theory"  Don't be ignorant.

I have a degree in Science..

the idea of species evolving into other species is an interpretation of the evidence. The only thing we can observe directly is 'micro evolution' which is just natural selection / common sense.

the rest of it could have mistakes.. for example evolution supports polygenism but "'mitochondrial Eve" supports one woman as our first mother. Science is like that: its not dogmatic, it changes. Faith doesn't change. I don't think we should idolize science. It has been wrong in the past and it can be wrong, that's part of the scientific process

6 minutes ago, dominicansoul said:

A Nashville Dominican teacher once told me, "Don't ever let anybody tell you Adam and Eve weren't real people"

I think I trust her more than most of you all on phatmass.  lol.

 

 

yes I'll just trust the Church more. Human reason is not infallible, the Church is infallible. It's a doctrine they were real people. For me that's case closed.

Edited December 4, 2015 by MarysLittleFlower

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, dominicansoul said:

A Nashville Dominican teacher once told me, "Don't ever let anybody tell you Adam and Eve weren't real people"

I think I trust her more than most of you all on phatmass.  lol.

 

 

I just asked what people thought. I didn't tell you anything.

Edited December 4, 2015 by Guest

[Era Might]

9 minutes ago, MarysLittleFlower said:

the Church is very clear that Adam and Eve were literal real people. If that contradicts some scientific *theory* then the theory is mistaken, not the Church. Science is not infallible and changes all the time. the Church doesn't change.

I understand. Just to be clear, I don't believe in the church and am not trying to reconcile it with scientific knowledge. But I'm not referring to a "theory" but to the entire scientific worldview, which is an entirely different worldview than pre-scientific worldviews that used mythology to create meaning.