Guest Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 https://youtu.be/dmsa0sg4Od4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 Bishop Barron thoughts on hell being empty of human souls is heavily influenced by Hans Urs von Balthasar. Balthasar rejected the traditional teaching of the Limbo of the Fathers or the hell of the Just. Instead he believed that before death of Christ all souls that died, both Just and the Damned, were together in a state of eternal damnation rather than separated as the Church has traditionally taught. Balthasar also believed that Christ descended into this state of eternal damnation and suffered the pains of the damned and then freed the souls therein. It is simply strange that Balthasar believed Christ suffered the pains of the damned or that God "crushed" Christ in hell. But it is convenient for Balthasar's hope that hell is empty of human souls to reject that there was a divide between the Just and the Damned. Since Christ freed the souls in Hell that would leave no souls in hell. But according to CCC 633 The Church teaches "Scripture calls the abode of the dead, to which the dead Christ went down, "hell" - Sheol in Hebrew or Hades in Greek - because those who are there are deprived of the vision of God. Such is the case for all the dead, whether evil or righteous, while they await the Redeemer: which does not mean that their lot is identical, as Jesus shows through the parable of the poor man Lazarus who was received into "Abraham's bosom": "It is precisely these holy souls, who awaited their Savior in Abraham's bosom, whom Christ the Lord delivered when he descended into hell." Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him." Hell is not empty because Christ did not free the damned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NadaTeTurbe Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 Every time I read this question, my first thought is : "With Hitler, Mao, Staline, Pol-Pot, and so on, hell can't be empty" I recently read about a father who used his children for pedophile pornography (he sold them...), and died before he was put in jail. Can you imagine God saying : "It doesn't matter that your sold your children to pedophile ?" No... There's a justice... I know my reflection is not really theological, but for me, if there's no justice and punishment for your crime in this life, then there MUST be justice in the afterlife. I'm very afraid of going to hell, but it also comfort me to know that horrible criminal will have a punishment... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarysLittleFlower Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 (edited) 1 hour ago, KnightofChrist said: Bishop Barron thoughts on hell being empty of human souls is heavily influenced by Hans Urs von Balthasar. Balthasar rejected the traditional teaching of the Limbo of the Fathers or the hell of the Just. Instead he believed that before death of Christ all souls that died, both Just and the Damned, were together in a state of eternal damnation rather than separated as the Church has traditionally taught. Balthasar also believed that Christ descended into this state of eternal damnation and suffered the pains of the damned and then freed the souls therein. It is simply strange that Balthasar believed Christ suffered the pains of the damned or that God "crushed" Christ in hell. But it is convenient for Balthasar's hope that hell is empty of human souls to reject that there was a divide between the Just and the Damned. Since Christ freed the souls in Hell that would leave no souls in hell. But according to CCC 633 The Church teaches "Scripture calls the abode of the dead, to which the dead Christ went down, "hell" - Sheol in Hebrew or Hades in Greek - because those who are there are deprived of the vision of God. Such is the case for all the dead, whether evil or righteous, while they await the Redeemer: which does not mean that their lot is identical, as Jesus shows through the parable of the poor man Lazarus who was received into "Abraham's bosom": "It is precisely these holy souls, who awaited their Savior in Abraham's bosom, whom Christ the Lord delivered when he descended into hell." Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him." Hell is not empty because Christ did not free the damned. I agree. We cant say who is there and we can hope for people to avoid it but I don't think its the case that its empty considering tradition and the revelations to Saints who visited hell 1 hour ago, NadaTeTurbe said: Every time I read this question, my first thought is : "With Hitler, Mao, Staline, Pol-Pot, and so on, hell can't be empty" I recently read about a father who used his children for pedophile pornography (he sold them...), and died before he was put in jail. Can you imagine God saying : "It doesn't matter that your sold your children to pedophile ?" No... There's a justice... I know my reflection is not really theological, but for me, if there's no justice and punishment for your crime in this life, then there MUST be justice in the afterlife. I'm very afraid of going to hell, but it also comfort me to know that horrible criminal will have a punishment... Its true that there's punishment but I believe God wants to save even the worst sinners. I read that he asked a victim soul to suffer three hours of the Passion for Stalin as he was dying. Apparently he still rejected the grace but Jesus wanted to save him because He died for him. If a person with the worst crimes repents with enough contrition / goes to Confession, they would be saved. If this doesn't seem just considering what they did... Maybe it could help to consider that if they are in hell they have made Christ's death be in vain for them.. That is a tragedy and a great source of grief to Our Lord. So while I believe in the existence of hell of course, I believe God doesn't want anyone to go there and I believe we shouldn't either. God's justice is good as He is good. But I believe Christ grieves so much over lost souls it is better to grieve with Him than be glad the souls are in hell? Just some thoughts I had. I agree the sins are horrible and deserve justice. But Christ died just so that souls can avoid this justice because He wants Mercy... He would rather suffer and offer that suffering to the Father as a sacrifice, than see these souls lost. Even the most sinful ones... I believe God wishes us to show that mercy too? Edited December 2, 2015 by MarysLittleFlower Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NadaTeTurbe Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 10 minutes ago, MarysLittleFlower said: Its true that there's punishment but I believe God wants to save even the worst sinners. I read that he asked a victim soul to suffer three hours of the Passion for Stalin as he was dying. Apparently he still rejected the grace but Jesus wanted to save him because He died for him. If a person with the worst crimes repents with enough contrition / goes to Confession, they would be saved. If this doesn't seem just considering what they did... Maybe it could help to consider that if they are in hell they have made Christ's death be in vain for them.. That is a tragedy and a great source of grief to Our Lord. So while I believe in the existence of hell of course, I believe God doesn't want anyone to go there and I believe we shouldn't either. God's justice is good as He is good. But I believe Christ grieves so much over lost souls it is better to grieve with Him than be glad the souls are in hell? Just some thoughts I had. I agree the sins are horrible and deserve justice. But Christ died just so that souls can avoid this justice because He wants Mercy... He would rather suffer and offer that suffering to the Father as a sacrifice, than see these souls lost. Even the most sinful ones... I believe God wishes us to show that mercy too? Yes, I agree with you ! But sometimes people refused God's mercy and His love. Like you say, if a person with the worst crimes repents with enough contrition, they would be saved. But some people never repent, you see ? The father I spoke about - he never repented, he joked about it with his wife, etc... Of course, I don't want people to be in hell, I'm sorry I wasn't clear. It makes me very sad that some people never repent, and then go to hell. I wish I was one of those catholic who speak with criminals and try to convert them but I am not brave enough, I just can pray and even this it's hard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dominicansoul Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 Hell is not empty. Our Lady of Fatima showed it to the children and not only was it not empty, the children saw thousands of souls falling into the flames "like leaves falling off a tree." So, not only was it not empty but there were souls falling in it at that very moment of the apparition. I know that Catholics are not obligated to believe in these private revelations, and that's fine. I truly believe she came to Fatima and I truly believe her messages, and because of this belief, I will never believe or hope that it's empty. Not only that, but Scripture, Holy Scripture which we must believe, tells us that the bad angels fell from heaven into hell...So, they are definitely in Hell, therefore it is not empty... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maggyie Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 It's certainly possible that it's empty, there's no way to be sure. Unlike heaven the church has never definitively said there are souls in hell. But even if it is empty, it doesn't mean it will stay that way forever, so each of us better look busy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Credo in Deum Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 Not only is it not empty according to the Scriptures, but we are also assured by the same Scriptures that Hell wont be empty after the general judgement. Wide is the road that leads to destruction and many are they who take it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ash Wednesday Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 In a sense, yes God did will for all to be saved. But even if I set aside private revelations I accept that approach the subject (St. Faustina, Fatima) -- I do not believe that an empty hell is likely. We do not know the numbers in hell or heaven for good reason -- to keep us on the straight and narrow and avoid complacency, but to also avoid total despair as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peace Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 I dunno about Hell being empty. It does seem like Jesus warns against it way too much for nobody to actually be there. Another thing is, doesn't the idea of Hell being empty kind of conflict with our free-will? It seems that some people would choose to reject God no matter what, as foolhardy of a choice as that may seem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 (edited) I don't think hell is completely empty but I think many people underestimate how awful purgatory can be and how long it can take to get out of there. Edited December 3, 2015 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papist Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 (edited) It was very clear that Christ taught not all will make it to the Kingdom of God. And He talked about how hard it would be to get there. I believe some of Christ's parables was clear that Hell exists and it is/will be populated. If Hell is empty and to remain empty, why would it exist, and why would Christ talk about it? Edited December 3, 2015 by Papist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anomaly Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 If hell is empty OR sparsely populated, Christians would be soooooo disappointed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 3 minutes ago, Anomaly said: If hell is empty OR sparsely populated, Christians would be soooooo disappointed. No Mr. Mocker that is not so. Why don't you go vomit insults from your fingertips elsewhere or not at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selah Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 :/ I don't know. I hope so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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