"For That Moment Become An Atheist"

[xSilverPhinx]

Yes, we have been talking past each other. I've been trying to elucidate how I think and you refuse to listen, because you already know it all, right?  This "conversation" has become tiring. 

31 minutes ago, Peace said:

And I think you are here because you want to know God, even though you refuse to admit that to yourself. Do me a favor tonight. Put aside your ego for a moment, sit down in front of a mirror and take a hard look at yourself. Search your feelings, as the Jedi say. Do you not really want to know God?

 Here you go telling me how I think again. 

No. I'm here for the reasons I explained. I keep coming back because I find people to be fascinating (you included), not gods. 

31 minutes ago, Peace said:

Fair enough. You assert that God and Santa are similar in that you do not believe that either exits.

But of course, with respect to Santa I take you at your word. With respect to God I believe that you are a liar.

Believe what you want, there's no convincing people who think they know how I think that actually I don't think what they think I think. 

31 minutes ago, Peace said:

What you wrote is ridiculous.

THANK YOU! *fireworks and confetti*

31 minutes ago, Peace said:

But I do not see how that is relevant to what we have been discussing.

You know what? Nevermind. I'm starting to feel like a broken record and this is going nowhere. I'm hoping that if you think about it a little you'll eventually have an epiphany moment and "get it". There is hope for you. 

31 minutes ago, Peace said:

Yes. I hope that you will convert. That would be for your own good. That sense of purpose or meaning that you lack, that restless longing in your heart, or that sense of inner peace that you lack, is something that only can be found with a relationship with your creator. I hope that you are able to get past whatever issues with God you may have, choose to have faith in Him, and have those things.

Dude, how could you possible think you know how I feel? You just keep doing that like there's no problemo. 

The intellectual freedom, the feeling of psychological emancipation, the adventurous thrill of finding my own way alone in the universe, knowing that I only have one life and that it should be valued are what I feel. But I don't know why I'm even bothering wasting my time trying to explain this to you when you already know what goes on inside my mind and are so quick to tell me how my mind works. *chuckle* 

31 minutes ago, Peace said:

1) Although I believe that you are lying, for the sake of argument let's say that you honestly believe that God does not exist, and would only believe it if presented with sufficient evidence. What evidence would be sufficient for you to believe in God?

I don't believe that any gods exist. I don't believe that any gods exist. I don't believe that any gods exist. I don't believe that any gods exist. I don't believe that any gods exist. I don't believe that any gods exist. I don't believe that any gods exist. I don't believe that any gods exist. I don't believe that any gods exist. 

I've said it many times. I'm being totally honest despite your belief in the contrary. 

I believe you're lying about Santa and that actually you believe he's real.  

I don't know what that evidence would be but nothing that I've encountered thus far. When I see it, I'll know. 

31 minutes ago, Peace said:

2) Following under the same assumptions, let's say that that evidence was presented to you, and you came to an honest belief that the Christian God was real. In this case, how would you feel? Would you submit to his authority? Would you be angry that you could no longer live life the way that you wanted to, without consequence? Would you be upset that you are no longer the boss of your own life? Or would you repent of your sins, ask for forgiveness, and choose to follow Him?

I would never voluntarily go into intellectual bondage just to feel emotionally secure and "safe". I like to keep an open mind though and if my experience with the god simulacrum is pleasant then I don't know.

Edited December 4, 2015 by xSilverPhinx

[Peace]

55 minutes ago, xSilverPhinx said:

Yes, we have been talking past each other. I've been trying to elucidate how I think and you refuse to listen, because you already know it all, right?  This "conversation" has become tiring. 

 You are free to end the "conversation" at any time you wish. I am not holding you by gunpoint. What is it that you have elucidated that I have failed to comprehend? You have stated that you do not believe that God exists. What else is it that you think that I am not comprehending?

I simply do not believe you. I believe that you are a liar. Deal with it.

55 minutes ago, xSilverPhinx said:

You know what? Nevermind. I'm starting to feel like a broken record and this is going nowhere. I'm hoping that if you think about it a little you'll eventually have an epiphany moment and "get it". There is hope for you. 

 Get what exactly? Again - I get what you are saying. I just think that you are lying. Deal with it.

55 minutes ago, xSilverPhinx said:

Dude, how could you possible think you know how I feel? You just keep doing that like there's no problemo. 

Because I have faith in God and you reject God, and because some things can only be obtained through a relationship with God.That enables me to know that there are certain things that you lack. You cannot have a full sense of peace unless you have a relationship with God, for example.

55 minutes ago, xSilverPhinx said:

The intellectual freedom, the feeling of psychological emancipation, the adventurous thrill of finding my own way alone in the universe, knowing that I only have one life and that it should be valued are what I feel. But I don't know why I'm even bothering wasting my time trying to explain this to you when you already know what goes on inside my mind and are so quick to tell me how my mind works. *chuckle* 

 If what you believe is true (which it is not) then you are indeed wasting your time, and everything that you mention above is meaningless. If atheism is true then your entire life and existence is objectively meaningless, including whatever "psychological emancipation" or "adventurous thrill of finding your own way" you may feel.

55 minutes ago, xSilverPhinx said:

I don't believe that any gods exist. I don't believe that any gods exist. I don't believe that any gods exist. I don't believe that any gods exist. I don't believe that any gods exist. I don't believe that any gods exist. I don't believe that any gods exist. I don't believe that any gods exist. I don't believe that any gods exist. 

I've said it many times. I'm being totally honest despite your belief in the contrary. 

I believe you're lying about Santa and that actually you believe he's real.

 I don't think that the number of times that you write it will convince me. Look - we just disagree on the matter. That is fine. If you assert that I am lying about Santa and that I actually believe that Santa is real, that is perfectly fine with me. It does not bother me if you assert that, nor should it, because both you and I know that Santa is not real. On the other hand, you know that God is real, which is probably why you seem to be so frustrated about the matter. The truth hurts.

55 minutes ago, xSilverPhinx said:

I don't know what that evidence would be but nothing that I've encountered thus far. When I see it, I'll know. 

I doubt it. Because your issue is not a lack of evidence. Your issue is that you know that God exists but reject Him. No amount of evidence would be sufficient for you to acknowledge God, now would it?

55 minutes ago, xSilverPhinx said:

I like to keep an open mind though and if my experience with the god simulacrum is pleasant then I don't know.

But I think that you do know. You already stated above that you find meaning in intellectual freedom, the feeling of psychological emancipation, and the adventurous thrill of finding your own way alone in the universe. That is why you reject God, is it not? Because you cannot accept the idea that there is someone greater than you that has power and authority over your life. That would impinge on these feelings and thrills that you value.

But again - there is still hope for you. Plenty of folks in your position have repented of their ways, and said yes to the God who loves them.

[Era Might]

Peace, what do you think your belief in God tells me about you? You've communicated your belief very clearly in this thread, and all I've learned about you is you feel it necessary to call a stranger a liar about the deepest question that humanity has ever attempted to answer, and that you seem to have a need to justify your belief by dismissing anyone who would challenge it.

You believe in God, but nothing in this thread would make make me want to loan you $5. Belief is cheap, and turns God into a word, an idea, an argument to win. Maybe you're a great person, but all I know about you is that you believe in God. Which is to say I know nothing about you.

[Guest]

Yeah Peace I don't really get how you continually call someone a liar because they don't believe in God? And you extend that to all agnostics/atheist. What's the undeniable proof that God exist? I'm a believer. I have my reasons why and a conversion experience. When I study science I see evidence there as well. Although without my personal conversion experience I wouldn't be sure. Even with my experience sometimes doubt slips in. Look around. Watch the news. So much evil. It never ends. Then you have natural disasters,diseases and cancer. You have things like the Holocaust and Isis. It goes on and on. I'm not attacking God or the idea of God. I'm just saying He made it a mystery. He didn't leave it so everyone knows without a doubt. I want agnostic/atheist to come to know God and the love He offers. Although it's ridiculous to call them all liars because they say they don't believe or are unsure. God could perform some miracles at this very moment to make it obvious that He exist. This would convert a lot of people. I'm not saying a miracle won't happen 5 seconds from now but if it doesn't then I will refrain from calling all agnostic and atheist liars. The Letters just came out in theaters about Mother Theresa. She doubted or lost complete faith. Was she a liar as well? This lady I'm friends with on Facebook lost her mother at a very early age to cancer. She's now an atheist as well. Why is she liar? She doesn't believe in God. Is there anger and and resentment there? Yeah probably. Although she doesn't bash God. She just doesn't believe in Him. I think her being agnostic would be more logical but I'm guessing that anger/resentment pushes her to atheism. I don't agree with her about her views on God, abortion or gay marriage. But she's a very nice woman and is married and a positive person. I don't think she's a liar because she says she doesn't believe in God. I actually believe her.

Edited December 4, 2015 by Guest

[Guest]

*Teresa

[xSilverPhinx]

You're an odd person, Peace. And there's something odd about your belief structure if you feel that you must believe that atheists are liars to validate yourself somehow.  

You made me go on the defensive and I felt the need to explain to you that you do NOT in fact know me. I took the bait.

It's weird that you call me a liar...based on what? You paint all atheists with a simplistic brush, and quite frankly telling people how they think and feel makes you look more than a little foolish. 

I've tried to explain my point of view to you many times but now I'm beginning to think that you might not ever get it. Not that it really matters, anyway. I'm ending this conversation that's going nowhere. 

 

 

 

[Peace]

12 hours ago, Era Might said:

Peace, what do you think your belief in God tells me about you? You've communicated your belief very clearly in this thread, and all I've learned about you is you feel it necessary to call a stranger a liar about the deepest question that humanity has ever attempted to answer, and that you seem to have a need to justify your belief by dismissing anyone who would challenge it.

You believe in God, but nothing in this thread would make make me want to loan you $5. Belief is cheap, and turns God into a word, an idea, an argument to win. Maybe you're a great person, but all I know about you is that you believe in God. Which is to say I know nothing about you.

I do not feel like responding to all of this, except that we seem to have a fundamental difference when it comes to the importance of belief. The Bible has a lot to say about belief. If you say that belief is cheap that is simply not Catholic. Belief is not everything, but it is important. It is a foundational element with one's relationship with God. And that is not cheap.

You can start with:

"Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."

"Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son."

[Peace]

5 hours ago, Josh said:

Yeah Peace I don't really get how you continually call someone a liar because they don't believe in God?

Because God makes Himself known to men. If a deer walked in front of you, and I witnessed that you saw the deer, I would know that you are lying when you said that you have never seen a deer. God does not physically appear to us, but He has made Himself known to us. It is in the Bible you know:

18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

And there are plenty more versus in the Bible that support the same idea. I think you can Google them yourself.

5 hours ago, Josh said:

And you extend that to all agnostics/atheist. What's the undeniable proof that God exist?

You can start with Aquinas. I also suggest that you take a look at this Section of the Catechism:

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s1c1.htm

5 hours ago, Josh said:

God could perform some miracles at this very moment to make it obvious that He exist. This would convert a lot of people.

 Atheism is a sin. So if God does not make Himself known to men in a way that we can know that He exists, would not God then be responsible for that sin?

And God has performed many miracles. You see many of them in the New Testament, and yet many people still rejected Him. The problem is not lack of evidence.

5 hours ago, Josh said:

I'm not saying a miracle won't happen 5 seconds from now but if it doesn't then I will refrain from calling all agnostic and atheist liars.

 OK. That is fine by me.

5 hours ago, Josh said:

The Letters just came out in theaters about Mother Theresa. She doubted or lost complete faith. Was she a liar as well?

I do not know if she lost complete faith. I doubt that. I am also unfamiliar with the letters. So I will have to see them first and a biography about the rest of her life before I can agree to that. I think that she is in line for canonization, so obviously, she did not die an Atheist.

5 hours ago, Josh said:

This lady I'm friends with on Facebook lost her mother at a very early age to cancer. She's now an atheist as well. Why is she liar? She doesn't believe in God. Is there anger and and resentment there? Yeah probably. Although she doesn't bash God. She just doesn't believe in Him. I think her being agnostic would be more logical but I'm guessing that anger/resentment pushes her to atheism. I don't agree with her about her views on God, abortion or gay marriage. But she's a very nice woman and is married and a positive person. I don't think she's a liar because she says she doesn't believe in God. I actually believe her.

Well. Again - I think an aspect of it is that people train their mind such that saying the lie becomes second nature (similar to how a person can pass a lie-detector test by repeating the lie to themselves over and over again so that it becomes second nature). Even murderers and rapists think that they are good people. I would guess that many atheists have something similar to that going on in their heads.

[Era Might]

21 minutes ago, Peace said:

I do not feel like responding to all of this, except that we seem to have a fundamental difference when it comes to the importance of belief. The Bible has a lot to say about belief. If you say that belief is cheap that is simply not Catholic. Belief is not everything, but it is important. It is a foundational element with one's relationship with God. And that is not cheap.

You can start with:

"Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."

"Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son."

Those verses tell me nothing about YOU. You say you believe and therefore you are "not condemned." That's fine because I have no intention of condemning you. The difference is you, as a believer, condemn others and call them liars. "The measure you give will be the measure you get." To call others liars is like telling the poor man he's lazy. Maybe he is maybe he isn't, but your work ethic makes you no better than him, and your inability to take his life seriously makes you worse.

Anyway, I'm not asking you to defend yourself. I don't care if you believe in God or not. It wouldn't change how I see you either way. All I see is your action, not your beliefs, and just as a suggestion, because I'm sure you're genuinely invested in savin souls, calling them liars doesn't bring them any closer to your beliefs. 

You might like "The Dialectics ofSecularization," a dialogue/book between Joseph Ratzinger and atheist Jurgen Habermas, which wouldn't have been possible if Ratzinger dismissed a brilliant man as a liar.

[Peace]

12 minutes ago, Era Might said:

Those verses tell me nothing about YOU.

Nor should they. You have already answered the question for yourself. You asserted that a belief in God is irrelevant. I don't see how any Catholic can take such a stance, but again, that is fine. We just disagree concerning that.

I was not responding directly towards your question, and I think I made myself clear that I was not. I also do not plan to respond to the question. You can draw whatever conclusions you like from that. That is fine by me.

Quote

You say you believe and therefore you are "not condemned." That's fine because I have no intention of condemning you. The difference is you, as a believer, condemn others and call them liars. "The measure you give will be the measure you get." To call others liars is like telling the poor man he's lazy. Maybe he is maybe he isn't, but your work ethic makes you no better than him, and your inability to take his life seriously makes you worse.

I make no assertions concerning whether individual people are condemned.

Some poor people are lazy. And some people do in fact lie. If I call a lazy person lazy does that make me wrong? Maybe if he were not lazy he would not be poor. And maybe he needs someone to tell him to stop being lazy. The Bible has plenty to say about sloth. If I call a liar a liar does that make me wrong? I already gave my reasons why I think they lie. If you disagree with those reasons, that is fine by me. We can have a difference of opinion on it.

I believe that Atheism is a sin. Is that wrong? I do not respect atheism as a valid position to take. Nor should any Catholic. If you respect atheism as a valid system of belief then we will just have to agree to disagree. That is fine.

Edited December 4, 2015 by Peace

[Credo in Deum]

I hate to burst everyones bubble but Santa Claus aka Saint Nicholas Bishop of Myra was a real person.

  

Rejoice, both God and Santa Claus are both real and Santa is in Heaven enjoying the beatific vision as we speak! Woot woot. Christianity.  Fruitcakes for the haters. 

[Era Might]

8 minutes ago, Credo in Deum said:

I hate to burst everyones bubble but Santa Claus aka Saint Nicholas Bishop of Myra was a real person.

  

Rejoice, both God and Santa Claus are both real and Santa is in Heaven enjoying the beatific vision as we speak! Woot woot. Christianity.  Fruitcakes for the haters. 

Did Mrs. Clause make it to Heaven? 

[Credo in Deum]

6 minutes ago, Era Might said:

Did Mrs. Clause make it to Heaven? 

Trick question.  There was no Mr. Claus. 

[Era Might]

1 minute ago, Credo in Deum said:

Trick question.  There was no Mr. Claus. 

But surely Rudolph is in hell?

Edited December 7, 2015 by Era Might

[Credo in Deum]

23 minutes ago, Era Might said:

But surely Rudolph is in hell?

Let's just say he's in a place which is as red as his nose.