Did the Trinity unanimously command this?

[Guest]

This is a perfect example of how the Father and Jesus appear to contradict themselves in character from Old to New Testament. This doesn't seem like Jesus who stopped the woman caught in adultery from being stoned to death. Are the Father and The Son different in ways? When I read a verse like this in the Old Testament and the Lord speaks, is that an unanimous decision of the whole Trinity? And if it's unanimous how is it in such contrast to Jesus in the New Testament? Is it possible Jesus could of disagreed with the Father partially but "let it go"? There's a couple more possibilities imo but I will refrain from listing them for now.                                                 Numbers 15:32-36

When the Israelites were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the sabbath day.Those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses, Aaron, and to the whole congregation.They put him in custody, because it was not clear what should be done to him.Then the Lord said to Moses, “The man shall be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him outside the camp.”The whole congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him to death, just as the Lord had commanded Moses. 

Edited December 1, 2015 by Guest

[Luigi]

First of all, I don't think the Trinity is a Council of some sort. I don't think they put things to a vote.

Secondly - keep in mind I'm no theologians but I've heard it said by wiser people than I am that - the history of salvation is a progression from God the stern disciplinarian father to God the loving forgiving father.

Note the different nuances in relationships between God and the following:

- Adam and Eve - God walked in the garden with them in the cool of the day, until they sinned. Then he drove them out.

- Noah and Company - God needed to punish the wicked world, but look kindly on Noah et alia and saved them.

- Abraham - This relationship is more legalistic than it is favoring or punishing. The covenant is a reference 'document' (although I don't think it was written).

- Moses et alia - God gives Moses the law. And for the next several generations, God (through Moses) teaches the law to the Israelites. The passes you quote above seems to be from this 'formative phase' and perhaps the punishment was strict in an effort to teach the seriousness with which the law should be viewed.

- You can go through the rest of the Bible and the relationships of various figures to God, but...

Jesus comes with the New Law, the fulfillment of the Old Law, and that includes more mercy and less punishment.

 

Anybody with any actual theological training want to stake a stab (not to use overly-punitive imagery or anything) at this?

[CatherineM]

I've often visualized the Son as that part of your personality from the heart that says "let's give them another chance" while the Father is that part from the head saying "we've given them a million chances already and they just keep hurting us. If we give them more chances they won't learn. They've got to have consequences."

[Guest]

Thanks Luigi for your reply and the points you made. When I try to quote it doesn't work right on my phone so I can address each statement. I like how you show the different stages and how God relates to humans. The question has to be asked though if this story is to be taken literally would it ever be alright to stone a man to death because he was picking up sticks? On the Sabbath or not? If the story is allegorical and shows how much God can't stand us and hates us outside of Christ then I can begin to try to see the value in it. But that's me as a Catholic who understands stuff like this has the possibility of being allegorical. What about an atheist? Why would an atheist want to love a God or submit to a God who orders a man to be stoned to death for picking up sticks? It's to ridiculous. For me as a believer it's to much. I'm supposed to believe God never changes and He's completely all loving and just. Yet He commands a guy picking up sticks to be stoned to death. There's no question about the difference of God in the Old and New Testament. I hear people say there's no difference. Completely the same God. Sorry that's not being sincere. There's a huge difference. That's why I'm convinced by Jesus. Because He did what was unexpected. He stopped the religious nuts from stoning the woman to death in God's name. He made it clear you don't do that. If God doesn't change then how could that same Jesus be okay with a guy being stoned to death for picking up sticks? It's either that story is far from the truth in a literal sense or Jesus and the Father don't see things the same way a lot of times. Or Moses heard incorrectly. Take your pick.

Edited December 1, 2015 by Guest

[Luigi]

Or, as a third possibility, it could be that God didn't change but he thought it was time to lead us-as-a-people to the next level of relationship with him.

"...would it ever be alright to stone a man to death because he was picking up sticks?" It was alright then, because God's people needed to learn the importance of the law. It wouldn't be alright now, because God's people have been taught about forgiveness (through the redemptive suffering of Jesus, etc.).

Jesus stopped the woman taken in adultery from being stoned as a way to teach forgiveness (and, we must add, conversion from sin on her part). He also forgave other people's sins (the paralytic, the man born blind, et al.). The interesting point to me is that I was always taught that it was the crucifixion - Jesus' sacrifice - that allows our sins to be forgiven, yet he forgave sins before the actual sacrifice. But then there's all that though about God living outside of time, so I guess we shouldn't calculate these things linearly. Or something.

[Guest]

Yeah I don't know. Every time I think I've heard the last absurd story from the Old Testament I end up hearing another new one. There can't be that many more left can there?

59 minutes ago, Luigi said:

Or, as a third possibility, it could be that God didn't change but he thought it was time to lead us-as-a-people to the next level of relationship with him.

 

I'm sorry it just doesn't make sense. It's either completely allegorical along with a bunch of other stories or.........And even if it's allegorical it's still difficult to find the good in it. The Bible doesn't speak anything against slavery yet it's totally cool with some guy picking up sticks being stoned to death by Moses and his guys because the Lord said so. Or a woman being stoned to death because she isn't a virgin or whatever else. It's just ridiculous. Sorry. I've tried and tried to make sense of this. And honestly the only thing that makes sense is its not to be taken seriously. Jesus I love you. You gave me a brain to think with. Have mercy on my soul.

Edited December 1, 2015 by Guest

[Guest]

Also how many more deaths has this led to in the last 2000 years because religious nuts read this and think it's okay to murder someone for picking up sticks? If it's okay to murder someone for picking up sticks then almost everything else is a go.

1 hour ago, Luigi said:

The interesting point to me is that I was always taught that it was the crucifixion - Jesus' sacrifice - that allows our sins to be forgiven, yet he forgave sins before the actual sacrifice. But then there's all that though about God living outside of time, so I guess we shouldn't calculate these things linearly. Or something.

 

Edited December 1, 2015 by Guest

[Thy Geekdom Come]

3 hours ago, CatherineM said:

I've often visualized the Son as that part of your personality from the heart that says "let's give them another chance" while the Father is that part from the head saying "we've given them a million chances already and they just keep hurting us. If we give them more chances they won't learn. They've got to have consequences."

Except this would be a variation on Modalism.

Rather, this is not a change of God's mind or a difference between the "God of the Old Testament" (presumably God the Father in this line of thought) and the "God of the New Testament" (God the Son). This is a reflection in God's pedagogy, which explanation St. Paul specifically gives. In ancient times, a boy would be instructed by a pedagogue, usually a slave, who would have authority to do just about anything to the boy in order to train him for adulthood. He could be harsh; he could punish severely if need be. When the boy grew up and came into his own, the boy was trusted to be maintain his own self-discipline. Likewise, in the Old Testament, putting up with Israel's many sins, God dealt with them harshly (but justly - remember, He has total authority and rights over all life), as a pedagogue, but with Christ came grace, and with grace, the real ability to live by grace, to maintain self-discipline in life. Thus, we enter a time of greater mercy in God's plan and are told to be merciful likewise to others. It may not seem fair; you might argue that the bar has been lowered. In fact, the bar has been raised; Christ Himself said not one jot or tittle would drop from the Law. He has raised the bar, but, with grace, we now have the ability to rise above it still.

[Guest]

I guess it's just tough to take these Old Testament stories seriously. One reason being the Father I know as God embodies the word Love. He truly is Love. Love doesn't stone women to death for not being a virgin. Love doesn't stone a guy to death for picking up sticks. If someone wants to tell me the stories are allegorical cool. But if you want me to believe God is okay with stoning women to death for not being virgins then I don't know what to tell you. If people push me hard enough on this I'll go as far as you push me. Hopefully it's not pushed to the point of being outside Catholicism/Christianity. Science has proven there was no worldwide flood. Science has also proven some stuff about Adam and Eve. Again the reason I BELIEVE in Jesus is because He was so different and did what was not expected. I understand what He said about the law and not getting rid of it. But He made sure the Pious men didn't stone that woman to death caught in adultery. That's why I believe in Jesus. I really think there was something special about him. That he was God. Because if the Bible would of kept going as is Jesus would of let her be stoned to death. That's what was supposed to happen. That's what God wanted. Or maybe it wasn't. Maybe God never wanted women to be stoned to death. Or a guy picking up sticks.

Edited December 2, 2015 by Guest

[Gabriela]

The title of this thread makes me think that we need a YouTube video called "How the Trinity Works".

@dUSt: Weren't you going to ramp up production? Wanna start with this?  

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

Old testament = death and judgment. New testament = New life and forgiveness. How can you be forgiven if your not 1st judged? Go tobie go tobie go tobie, joking, all glory and honor to His Great and Holy Name. That is the simpletons version of it, i'm sure there is far more to it than my simplicity.

Edited December 2, 2015 by Tab'le De'Bah-Rye

[MarysLittleFlower]

The Holy Trinity follows the same Divine Will. He didn't change in the NT. We do see much mercy in the OT too. So I think if it doesn't make sense, we are just missing the explanation I mostly don't have an explanation but I trust its there and probably the Church spoke on it. Above all we should believe in God's goodness or we would go on a downward spiral based on a lie. God is good and both Testaments show that and both describe the same God. Part of the difference is that there were the chosen people that God was trying to protect and prepare for the Messiah, and He was giving them the law and teaching them of His holiness. Fullness of revelation came with Christ who explained the rest. Some things like about divorce they werent ready for before. Other things are based maybe on other reasons. Maybe its because He was trying to get them to understand the Law. God knows

From the Catechism 

129 Christians therefore read the Old Testament in the light of Christ crucified and risen. Such typological reading discloses the inexhaustible content of the Old Testament; but it must not make us forget that the Old Testament retains its own intrinsic value as Revelation reaffirmed by our Lord himself.105 Besides, the New Testament has to be read in the light of the Old. Early Christian catechesis made constant use of the Old Testament.106 As an old saying put it, the New Testament lies hidden in the Old and the Old Testament is unveiled in the New."

Here's one answer to a similar questions http://www.ewtn.com/v/experts/showmessage.asp?number=333801&Pg=&Pgnu=&recnu=

 

Edited December 2, 2015 by MarysLittleFlower

[Guest]

That's why I think this discussion is necessary...

[Guest]

The more I think about this who knows. Maybe God did tell Moses to do that. After all we live in a world where children are sex slaves and die of cancer everyday. Horrible evil things happen all the time that God allows. So why would it be out of the question for God in the Old Testament to permit men and woman being stoned to death and other kinds of violence for what seem like very trivial reasons like gathering sticks. It's the world we live in. I guess i just expect God to always be a voice of reason like He was with the woman caught in adultery. At the end of the day we have to have Faith it all works out in the end. It's humbling to think you know God and then realize you don't have a clue. I still think He's good. Although it seems Him and Jesus Have different personalities and views on things. Although it's probably not the case and just a lack of understanding on my part and the result of being a measly human.

Edited December 2, 2015 by Guest

[Seven77]

The way that I think of the Mosaic law is along the lines of what Jesus says when he was approached on the issue of divorce, “God permitted because of the hardness of hearts, but from the beginning it was not so.” Things were different at the time of Moses… because the people were “stiffnecked and stubborn,” and were like infants who did not fully understand as Raphael suggested.

The God of the New Testament is the same kind of the Old Testament… if you really want to see this, read the prophets, the prophetical books of the Old Testament go a long way to help clarify the harshness that you picked up on. The God of the Old Testament depicted there is most definitely a God of love. And to me, even stuff in Exodus and Deuteronomy show me that, provided that I read carefully…

Edited December 4, 2015 by Seven77