Discerning with a new community

[Gabriela]

5 minutes ago, McM RSCJ said:

·      A Religious I know researched healthy religious communities for her PhD thesis in Sociology.  One finding is that “three” is the hardest number for trying to sustain a healthy community.   So often, with any decision, one person will be the odd-person out. 

Would you mind to give a citation for this dissertation? I'm interested in reading it.

[katherineH]

1 hour ago, Gabriela said:

Would you mind to give a citation for this dissertation? I'm interested in reading it.

I was going to ask the same thing  sounds like a fascinating dissertation to read. 

[orapronobis]

Mary Catherine, I would first of all like to praise you for your bravery in discerning with a community-in-formation. I'm in a similar situation myself and I know that it can be quite a challenge to just wait and see what the Holy Spirit has in store- be assured of my prayers for you.

I do, however fully agree with McM RSCJ and I think that it would be prudent to take what has been said into account just so that you can prepare yourself for the very real possibility of real "bumps in the road" in terms of your personal discernment and in the development of this congregation. If God intends for you to be part of this new community then he will give you the strength to deal with all this even if you don't realise it.

 

God Bless

[AveMariaPurissima]

11 hours ago, Gabriela said:

To answer your question very directly: No, I wouldn't consider it. But that's only because I've had some contact with new communities (and when I say "new", I mean about 50 or 60 years old), and it's never been good. The early years can be very uncertain, with lots of change and turmoil as a community figures out its identity. That would drive me nuts. I couldn't commit to something with such an uncertain future. And my feeling is that a lot of new communities begun since VII have had serious identity crises. They really haven't clearly thought out their "vision".

But then, I also seriously lack trust in God. I'd be afraid. I want certainty. Which is silly, cuz even in an established community, there's no guarantee it'll be in 50 years what it was when you entered. So really, it's just my weakness.

Then on the other hand, in social science there's a fundamental principle that states: "The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior." And I think that's true for groups as well as individuals. So at least in an established community I'd feel like I had more certainty, even if I didn't in fact. I guess feeling secure is enough for me.  

All that being said, if I felt 100% certain God was calling me to such a community, how could I say no? It really all depends on that.

 

6 hours ago, NadaTeTurbe said:

 I've read a book about "New religious communities in France after VII". It was written in 1995, and the "funny" (or not...) thing is that half of the communities the author is speaking about (he said that "it's the future" "there's many vocations") doesn't exist anymore. In the other half, a lot have lost vocations, or are in an apostolic visitation. BUT these communities had some signs that they were not viable : 

- personality cult around the founder 
- a mix of spirituality (exemple : next to my home, there's a "new" community, who have had one apostolic visitation, and who is : carmelite, orthodox, jewish, contemplative, active, charismatic. It's a lot !), a kind of "supermarket of spirituality" (because, as Gabriela said, of the identity crisis after VII) 
-No discernement of vocations.
- A vision of religious life who was not really catholic, again because of the identity crisis (Here I'm speaking about the "communion of the states of life", i.e when brothers, priest, sisters, and laypeople (including children), live together. It worked in some communities (Chemin Neuf), but a lot failed because of it and people were hurted (my next door community was a "communion of the states of life" until the visitation by the Vatican. They now have been asked to live religious life traditionally.) 

Here, Mary Catherine describe a traditionnalist community, so not something charismatic or "new", and a benedictine spirituality, again, not something new. It's for me two good signs. Of course, the future is unsure, but this community already have two pillars to support them : benedictine spirituality, and the TLM mass/vision of religious life (and I'm telling this even if I'm not at all traditionnalist  )
 

I'd have to say that I too would have qualms about discerning with a new community.  I discerned with and entered a community that was about 20 years old at the time, and I definitely saw some of the signs that Nada mentioned.  There was a huge personality cult around the foundress, and I saw traces of Carmelite, Franciscan, Benedictine, and even a little Dominican in their spirituality, as well as their own.

I think I'd be hesitant to discern with a new community again...The community I'm discerning with now is part of a larger Order that has been around for several centuries, so that stability makes me feel a little bit better.  But it all depends on where God is calling me!  

[inperpetuity]

I seem to remember seeing a write up about this community several years ago somewhere, and I have wondered what became of them. I also remember thinking, wow, Australia, that's way too far.  I wonder if it's the same community that's been in the works since then.  I wish them well, it sounds like a wonderful beginning.  I always wanted to join a community that had stability, never like the idea of all the changes and uncertainty that comes with founding a new one, but it seems God's ways have had very minimal resemblance to mine, lol.  I hope that by the time I leave this world the resemblance will be much greater! He really is so patient.  A blessed Advent to all.

[josephine]

there are also a couple of older threads about the difference between a healthy religious community and cults and i do advise you to look at those. these 20 are from the ICSA and have been posted before.

1) total obedience to the pope - as a way to bypass the local authorities aka bishop. related to those are 2 and 3.

2) no sense of belonging to the local church

3) no respect for local authorities 

4) makes use of lies to gain approval

5) too soon an emphasis on placing all goods in common

6) claiming special revelations or messages as a reason to found to community

7) special status of the founder

8) special or severe penances 

9) multiple devotions without any unity (as nada pointed out above)

10) promotion of fringe elements within the church (special devotions, private revelations, extreme social or political agendas)

11) special vows

12) absolute secrety to the outside, no privacy on the inside

13) control over the confessors and spiritual directors

14) serious discontent of previous institutions that members were part of

15) any form of sexual misconduct

16) the group is preoccupied with bringing in new members

17) the group is preoccupied with making money (transparancy of money in general)

18) elitsm aka their group is the best

19) leadership uses guilt to control members

20) members have no contact with the outside world including friends and familymembers

 

remember, these are indicators, not clearcut measuresticks. but do keep them in mind when discerning any community.

 

[Nunsuch]

I would also keep in mind that there are many established communities of all sorts that are actively welcoming new members. Their stability and their traditions are worth considering. Also, one of the benefits of community life is having members of varying ages and personal stories. 

New communities, as many people have said, have their own challenges, but one thing I think it important to consider is whether it really is meeting an otherwise unmet need, or reflecting a new charism? If not, then does it have a real justification for existence? A new community is supposed to emerge for both spiritual and practical reasons--if those aren't apparent, then the likelihood of long-term survival is weaker.

Are there already established communities that appeal to you? This may take some effort to discover, but may be a really beneficial thing in the long run--particularly for Benedictines, with *stability* as a fundamental attribute of their monasteries!

[AveMariaPurissima]

The thing is, even the orders that are now centuries old were, at one time, brand new.  Someone(s) had to take the leap of faith and enter a new community that was just getting its feet off the ground.  If no one ever joined a community just because it was new, well, there wouldn't be any religious communities at all! 

After all, if a certain Thomas Aquinas hadn't joined those newfangled Dominicans (who had only been around for not quite 30 years at the time, if my math is correct)....

I guess it comes down to grace and where God is calling you, while being prudent in discerning if the community is healthy and if you really have what it takes (with God's grace, of course) to be a pioneer and really a co-founder/foundress in a new community, with all the unique trials and struggles that go with such an endeavor.

 

Just some other thoughts...all things being equal, I still would prefer an established community, myself!

[Nunsuch]

Yes, AMP, but the Dominicans had been around for 30 years--and had a lot more than 2 or 3 members by the time St. Thomas Aquinas came along. IS there a need for all the communities that are emerging with just a handful of members? Keep in mind, too, that in the past, communication and transportation were much more difficult than now, so the need for more small and scattered communities was greater. History shows that most of them did not survive. And most of these will not, either. That is not bad--some congregations meet a limited need for a short time--but it is a danger.

[AveMariaPurissima]

I know it wasn't a perfect comparison.  Really, I was only trying to be light hearted.

[Mary Catherine]

Dear sister in Christ,

Of course this congregation is not a cult, and I see it is healthy indeed.

They are open to the faithful and their spirituality is purely Benedictine.

But they have just started this May, and living in a benefactor's house. I thought there would be many girls joining them, may be they are coming...

[Gabriela]

1 hour ago, Mary Catherine said:

Dear sister in Christ,

Of course this congregation is not a cult, and I see it is healthy indeed.

They are open to the faithful and their spirituality is purely Benedictine.

But they have just started this May, and living in a benefactor's house. I thought there would be many girls joining them, may be they are coming...

I hope you didn't take offense at Josephine's posting of that list, Mary Catherine. It's something we regularly post whenever there may be reason for people to wonder about a community (like, when it's brand new). It wasn't an accusation, just a reminder to people not to get swept away with some community they love. As others have said, prudence (and some measure of practicality!) always has a place.

Personally, I hadn't read that list for a long time, but now that I just have again, I see in one of the communities I visited a lot of those elements. I should have looked harder at the list when I was discerning with them, because flags probably would have gone up sooner. That community is now in the midst of visitations. So... it never hurts to just go through the list, even if you think it isn't relevant!

[Sponsa-Christi]

10 minutes ago, Gabriela said:

I hope you didn't take offense at Josephine's posting of that list, Mary Catherine. It's something we regularly post whenever there may be reason for people to wonder about a community (like, when it's brand new). It wasn't an accusation, just a reminder to people not to get swept away with some community they love. As others have said, prudence (and some measure of practicality!) always has a place.

Personally, I hadn't read that list for a long time, but now that I just have again, I see in one of the communities I visited a lot of those elements. I should have looked harder at the list when I was discerning with them, because flags probably would have gone up sooner. That community is now in the midst of visitations. So... it never hurts to just go through the list, even if you think it isn't relevant!

Building on what Gabriela said, for the kinds of questions presented in the OP, people here are going to respond in a very general way. I.e., we're naturally going to discuss new communities in general, rather than commenting specifically on the un-named community you're discerning with. 

[Graciela]

I would encourage readers of this thread to see the posts about Maria Elisabetta Patrizzi and the two communities that she founded which have now been suppressed according to a post on that thread. Sounds like maybe there was a cult of personality around the foundress there. I can remember when the SMMI (the first community that she founded) were all the rage amongst young women who wanted an order in the habit, and they were growing so fast! Now they are disbanded.

I have concerns about the two former PCPA sisters who now want to found new communities. One especially, the one to serve priests, is clearly not a new idea: the Oblates of the Sacred Heart of Jesus have had this apostolate since 1834, as have other communities who are established. The Benedictine Daughters of Divine Will, also founded by another former Hanceville PCPA, feels weird with their emphasis on the private revelations of a Luisa Piccarretti.  Given how many sisters have left Hanceville since Mother Angelica was seriously disabled by her last stroke, and the fact the the ecclesial authorities mandated that they have an outside Benedictine nun as their acting superior for a number of years thereafter,  I wonder how healthy that community was in the first place. It is concerning that they may have the attitude that no one else is doing it "correctly" so they must start new communities.

I am less concerned by a new Benedictine community forming, as good support from existing Benedictine communities is available, with 1500 years of experience. It would depend very much on what resources from the Benedictine family are being drawn upon in the new foundation. For example, the Solesmes family of Benedictines have been preserving beautiful Latin liturgy for a long time and are well established.

All in all, I feel very wary about some of the new communities that are being founded.  With so many communities in existence already, I would be very alert for the potential signs listed above before considering a new community.

[Sponsa-Christi]

16 minutes ago, Graciela said:

I would encourage readers of this thread to see the posts about Maria Elisabetta Patrizzi and the two communities that she founded which have now been suppressed according to a post on that thread. Sounds like maybe there was a cult of personality around the foundress there. I can remember when the SMMI (the first community that she founded) were all the rage amongst young women who wanted an order in the habit, and they were growing so fast! Now they are disbanded.

I have concerns about the two former PCPA sisters who now want to found new communities. One especially, the one to serve priests, is clearly not a new idea: the Oblates of the Sacred Heart of Jesus have had this apostolate since 1834, as have other communities who are established. The Benedictine Daughters of Divine Will, also founded by another former Hanceville PCPA, feels weird with their emphasis on the private revelations of a Luisa Piccarretti. 

I also have some concerns about the idea of a community founded around the private revelations of Luisa Piccarreta, as I read some of her writings and found that they seemed a bit "off" to me theologically (although granted, this was just my first impression after a cursory reading, and I was reading an English translation). 

Re. the new community founded to serve priests, my first thought was that this did seem similar to a few already-existing communities. However, I'm wondering if maybe this new community might have been started with the special encouragement or request of the local bishop. Just because a similar community already exists doesn't automatically mean that said community will be able to open a house in a particular diocese. Also, I think this new community might have a slightly different spirituality, or perhaps a more contemplative focus.