Seriously considering leaving the church because of position on sister's marriage

[Anomaly]

24 minutes ago, Kevin said:

If I had any impression that they were considering converting, I might tell them to do so. But I doubt they would care what the Church thinks of their marriage since they are, after all not even Catholic. Even if they were willing to get such a thing for my sake, I doubt the Church would give it to people who don't recognize the Church at all.

I don't know if you read the post in depth, but I am in agreement with you on most things. My concern is, how can I go on being Catholic if I am required to believe this? With other things, there are outs like invincible ignorance being the exception to the rule that there is no salvation outside the Church, but with this, it doesn't see like there's an out at all.

Kevin, 

As an ex-Catholic, I would caution you against leaving the Church for the reasons you stated.  Emotionally charged reasons are no basis to join or leave a Belief System.

You're relying on your personal understanding and posts from internet persons that cannot have but a superficial understanding of the situation.  I'd also say that yours and your sister's understanding of the full Church teaching may be deep in some aspects, it's shallow in the broader understanding and application.  You're "Feenying" as a mirror to the perception of others (and the Church) being harshly narrowminded. 

Re-read Basilsa's and Catherine's posts.  They're excellent.  The Church doesn't and won't back off the desired Ideal Marriage, but there is lots of wiggle room for a good Catholic to behave lovingly towards people in a non-ideal situation.  People are not perfect. Allow some slack for your sister, as well others who may be coming off too harshly.   Visit and discuss this with a real priest in real life when there is time to discuss all the complex aspects. 

[Kevin]

7 minutes ago, Nihil Obstat said:

Kevin, there is too much anger, too much pride. Life is always hard, but the only true guide is Christ and the Church He set over us. Please pray, and cling to our holy and infallible doctrines.
The grace to be conformed to God's Will is attainable, but only if we use the only grace truly guaranteed to us: the grace to pray.

On what do you base the assertion that the only guide is the Church? Particularly when the Church seems to say different things at different times.

And as I pointed out, apparently God's will changed on this issue since Canon 1117 was changed in 2009. It's exactly this sort of dismissive "Just listen to what the Church says and don't ask questions" that I can't stand.

Oh, and according to Aquinas and Augustine and a bunch of other theologians, Grace isn't even something you can "attain", God simply arbitrarily doles it out to whoever he wishes for reasons nobody can say anything about. So whether or not I have the grace to pray is entirely up to God's arbitrary (or, excuse me "inscrutable", as if there was a difference) will to give me grace or not.

Edited November 25, 2015 by Kevin

[Nihil Obstat]

15 minutes ago, Kevin said:

On what do you base the assertion that the only guide is the Church? Particularly when the Church seems to say different things at different times.

And as I pointed out, apparently God's will changed on this issue since Canon 1117 was changed in 2009. It's exactly this sort of dismissive "Just listen to what the Church says and don't ask questions" that I can't stand.

Oh, and according to Aquinas and Augustine and a bunch of other theologians, Grace isn't even something you can "attain", God simply arbitrarily doles it out to whoever he wishes for reasons nobody can say anything about. So whether or not I have the grace to pray is entirely up to God's arbitrary (or, excuse me "inscrutable", as if there was a difference) will to give me grace or not.

I was quite careful in not saying that we can attain grace. I said that grace is attainable, i.e. can be attained. It comes from God. Not arbitrarily; according to perfect justice.
The Church has been set up on earth in order to guide us, to follow God's will for us. That is all there is, and it is all we need. Trust in God, trust in the Church, and surrender yourself to Him.

[CatherineM]

My Father always said it was a shame that Jesus had to leave his perfect Church in the hands of imperfect humans. The Church is like a large noisy family at Thanksgiving. It's loud and messy, some people don't get along with others, but in the end, we're all there together. You don't leave a family just because you can't get along with Uncle Fred. Leaving the Church wouldn't change the Church, but it would change you. 

[KnightofChrist]

1 hour ago, Kevin said:

I only wish that a letter from the Bishop would be enough, but that was revoked after 2009.

The issue that I have is that while my sister may have become a Calvinist and that may make her a heretic, I can't accept that she is guilty of any sexual impurity because of a technicality.

I still believe what JPII said applies in this situation, her bond may not be recognized by the Church but by being in this bond she cannot be likened to those who sell their bodies for sex or have multiple partners with no commitment. Please talk to a good Priest or canon lawyer (if you are able to find one) about this; that would be so much better because you could have a real face to face conversion with some in person.

[tinytherese]

1 hour ago, Kevin said:

On what do you base the assertion that the only guide is the Church? Particularly when the Church seems to say different things at different times.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but what the Church officially believes in regards to faith and morals doesn't change, but how it applies it can. Also, its understanding on issues can further develop like a child's body and mind transition into adulthood. 

The Church regards weddings between non-Catholics and non-Christians as valid because it wouldn't make sense for them to follow Catholic protocol since they are not Catholic. A Catholic however, is supposed to follow it. Unless they have formally renounced their Catholic faith, then the Church regards them as still part of the Church. 

[NadaTeTurbe]

Kevin, I would advise you to stay away from catholic forum, and to ask your questions to someone in real life  , someone who have a formation, who will listen to you, answer your questions, and help you. 

Read again the post of CatherineM, who is full of truth. 

But please, don't take a decision so serious as leaving the Church, because of the internet. 

God bless you and your sister. 

[Kevin]

1 hour ago, Nihil Obstat said:

I was quite careful in not saying that we can attain grace. I said that grace is attainable, i.e. can be attained. It comes from God. Not arbitrarily; according to perfect justice.
The Church has been set up on earth in order to guide us, to follow God's will for us. That is all there is, and it is all we need. Trust in God, trust in the Church, and surrender yourself to Him.

No, it isn't according to justice, because that would imply "merit" had anything to do with it. The  However, I'm a Molinist on the issue anyway, but it doesn't surprise me that someone whose only argument is "Obey the Church because you have to" falls back on on the Augustinian position. In fact, it was only Augustine who embraced predestination in the way he did, so I shouldn't have even associated such a view with that of the Church.

However, the main point: I refuse to follow the Church just because it says it is the Church. If the Church teaches something that makes no sense to me and I embrace it, that would be Fidesim anyway.

27 minutes ago, tinytherese said:

The Church regards weddings between non-Catholics and non-Christians as valid because it wouldn't make sense for them to follow Catholic protocol since they are not Catholic. A Catholic however, is supposed to follow it. Unless they have formally renounced their Catholic faith, then the Church regards them as still part of the Church. 

This last part is not the case, hence the problem. Even if you renounce Catholicism, you are apparently still bound to marry in the Catholic form or you are guilty not only of heresy, but fornication. Oh, unless you got married between 1983 and 2009 and filed a formal defection. That made it okay, apparently.

45 minutes ago, KnightofChrist said:

I still believe what JPII said applies in this situation, her bond may not be recognized by the Church but by being in this bond she cannot be likened to those who sell their bodies for sex or have multiple partners with no commitment. Please talk to a good Priest or canon lawyer (if you are able to find one) about this; that would be so much better because you could have a real face to face conversion with some in person.

I sent an email to a Canon lawyer. In the end, I will probably not leave the Church anyway, but neither will I acknowledge that my sister is not really married. So I may just excommunicate myself latae sententiae whether I like it or not.

1 hour ago, CatherineM said:

My Father always said it was a shame that Jesus had to leave his perfect Church in the hands of imperfect humans. The Church is like a large noisy family at Thanksgiving. It's loud and messy, some people don't get along with others, but in the end, we're all there together. You don't leave a family just because you can't get along with Uncle Fred. Leaving the Church wouldn't change the Church, but it would change you. 

A church is not like a family in one sense: a man who disbelieves one article of the faith, disbelieves them all. It's true that leaving the Church would not change the Church, but just as you've pointed out, the issue is not with the Church, but with me: if the Church requires me to believe something I cannot accept, I will be outside the Church regardless of whether I stop going to Mass or calling myself a Catholic.

[Nihil Obstat]

As I said before, there is too much anger and too much pride. Take care and keep watch. I have nothing left to say.

[KnightofChrist]

13 minutes ago, Kevin said:

I sent an email to a Canon lawyer. In the end, I will probably not leave the Church anyway, but neither will I acknowledge that my sister is not really married. So I may just excommunicate myself latae sententiae whether I like it or not.

It would probably be better to get a confessor, talk to a priest over time not just this one issue. It appears perhaps other issues trouble you as well, perhaps not. But talking in person will likely be better than over the internet since you or whomever response can come off as cold when that is not the case.

[SaintOfVirtue]

4 hours ago, CatherineM said:

The other thing to remember is that marriage is the only sacrament that isn't preformed by a priest. It is conferred by the couple on each other the priest or deacon is simply the Church's witness.

This concept is entirely new to me and I'd like to learn more about it. Could you expound or provide a reference please?

[truthfinder]

1 hour ago, SaintOfVirtue said:

This concept is entirely new to me and I'd like to learn more about it. Could you expound or provide a reference please?

CCC  1623 According to Latin tradition, the spouses as ministers of Christ's grace mutually confer upon each other the sacrament of Matrimony by expressing their consent before the Church. In the tradition of the Eastern Churches, the priests (bishops or presbyters) are witnesses to the mutual consent given by the spouses,¹²⁴ but for the validity of the sacrament their blessing is also necessary.¹

[Ice_nine]

/irrelevant

What if it's the zombie apocalypse and you can't find a priest could a couple still confer a valid marriage?

[veritasluxmea]

12 minutes ago, Ice_nine said:

/irrelevant

What if it's the zombie apocalypse and you can't find a priest could a couple still confer a valid marriage?

Yes

[Gabriela]

Personally, after carefully noting response patterns, I'm wondering if we have a new dairygirl. I hope not, and I'll pray for the situation in any case.