Seriously considering leaving the church because of position on sister's marriage

[MarysLittleFlower]

Kevin, the Church teaches the marriage is invalid but it doesn't teach that its just like picking up men in bars in the intent. Its still not valid but picking up random men has the intent of promiscuity. You are saying to the Church its exactly the same but you are not quoting any document, rather it is your understanding. Objectively there is no marriage so objectively it's like cohabitation but I hope you can see how there's a difference in the persons intent. Thats why we dont determine culpability only the obkective reality.

Also the Church isn't asking of you to come up to your sister and say "you are a fornicator". The Church would ask to not give support to the marriage but this could be done in gentle ways. The Church is not 'insulting' anyone with its teachings. It doesn't make up what the truth is, it merely communicates it to us from God. If someone chooses to leave the Church that does have effects but the person can come back. You sound very upset and I suggest you just take a step back, remember what brought you to the Church and trust that it teaches the truth. In the end Protestantism isn't historical Christianity, they have changed a lot. As St Peter said, where else would we go, Christ has the words of eternal life. He gave this to the Church. Its not an insult to say that someone did not follow the teachings and pray for their return. That is not unloving. I used to be Protestant and had many errors, and my friend prayed a lot for me and I converted to Catholicism. Would it have been loving if my friend refused to help me and saw it as an insult that the Church sees Protestantism as heresy? Love is doing what is best for the person s soul and salvation. 

[KnightofChrist]

27 minutes ago, Kevin said:

This isn't even relevant. My sister didn't have a civil marriage, she had a marriage with a Protestant minister that, had she not be baptized a Catholic, would have been not only a valid marriage but a sacrament. She is in fact probably far more religious than me in the way she lives. But the Church still views her on the same level as prostitute, and all I see here is a cop out that tries to say one thing ("It's not comparable to co-habitation") while the doctrine that says the marriage is not valid and not even natural says the opposite ("It's the same thing as co-habitation")

It is relevant but I think you are too angry to see that now. JPII may be talking about Civil Marriages, however he is also talking baptized Catholics who marry outside the Church. Your sister has a bond rather than no bond at all and therefor cannot be correctly compared to a prostitute or a person who sleeps around with various men.

 

[MarysLittleFlower]

47 minutes ago, Kevin said:

Like this amounts to anything in the eyes of the Church! Just look at Cantate Domino

"It firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart “into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels” [Matt. 25:41], unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church"

So not only will my sister go to hell, but these Coptic Christians who died with the name of Jesus on their lips, all went directly to hell. This is what the Church teaches! I can't pretend I accept this anymore! 

I thought Cantate Domino was like a blog where someone talked about the martyrs. Lol. Because no Church document says things like that. Now I see what you mean that its a Church document. But the part about the martyrs is your own conclusion. You are reading things and trying to interpret them on your own. The Church doesn't make judgements about individuals because

- someone could receive knowledge of the Church as they are dying.

- we don't know their level of invincible ignorance which is also a Church teaching.

- Cantate Domino is talking generally not about individuals. Salvation of individuals we leave to God. 

[Kevin]

" The Church would ask to not give support to the marriage but this could be done in gentle ways"

That's impossible because I do support the marriage. Not supporting it is the same as saying she is a fornicator. I don't support her decision to be a Calvinist, not the fact of her being married.

"It doesn't make up what the truth is, it merely communicates it to us from God."

So the Truth changed from 1983 to 2009 when Canon 1117 allowed for formal defection?

"You sound very upset and I suggest you just take a step back, remember what brought you to the Church and trust that it teaches the truth."

By the Church's own definition, I was brought into the Church against my will when I was an infant.

"In the end Protestantism isn't historical Christianity, they have changed a lot. As St Peter said, where else would we go, Christ has the words of eternal life. He gave this to the Church. Its not an insult to say that someone did not follow the teachings and pray for their return. That is not unloving. I used to be Protestant and had many errors, and my friend prayed a lot for me and I converted to Catholicism. Would it have been loving if my friend refused to help me and saw it as an insult that the Church sees Protestantism as heresy? Love is doing what is best for the person s soul and salvation."

Anything you say about Protestantism and heresy is completely irrelevant. The Church apparently teaches that a marriage between two unbaptized atheists or Buddhists is natural and valid, but my sisters isn't natural and isn't even a marriage. You can play around with semantics all you like, but it boils down to the same thing. I pray for my sister to come back to the Church, but apparently the Church thinks I should also pray for an end to her non-marriage because when she has sex with her husband she is fornicating and committing a mortal sin.

Edited November 25, 2015 by Kevin

[KnightofChrist]

Where does the Church call baptized Catholics who marry outside the Church fornicators. Please find it directly and stop assuming.

[Kevin]

13 minutes ago, KnightofChrist said:

Where does the Church call baptized Catholics who marry outside the Church fornicators. Please find it directly and stop assuming.

2353 Fornication is carnal union between an unmarried man and an unmarried woman. It is gravely contrary to the dignity of persons and of human sexuality which is naturally ordered to the good of spouses and the generation and education of children. Moreover, it is a grave scandal when there is corruption of the young.

If they aren't validly married (that is, its not even a natural marriage), they are fornicating. Though if my sister had married a few years earlier and made a formal defection, she would have been really married, but nope, too late.

[KnightofChrist]

Just now, Kevin said:

2353 Fornication is carnal union between an unmarried man and an unmarried woman. It is gravely contrary to the dignity of persons and of human sexuality which is naturally ordered to the good of spouses and the generation and education of children. Moreover, it is a grave scandal when there is corruption of the young.

If they aren't validly married (that is, its not even a natural marriage), they are fornicating. Though if my sister had married a few years earlier and made a formal defection, she would have been really married, but nope, too late.

Yes I'm sorry I thought that when she became Calvinist she would have publicly defected from the Church, but that requires her writing her Bishop.

My sister is in a similar boat, but she seems to have no wish to be married in any way, and least your sister has some bond. Mine made her choices she continues to live by them, all I can do is pray for her. My getting angry with the Church or leaving the Church will not make the Church wrong or anything any better than it is now.  It would just hurt me and make me something of a contradiction. I want her to accept the Faith so I must also. I'm sorry if we have not been able to calm you or give you the answer you wanted.

[Basilisa Marie]

Okay Kevin cool your jets. 

There's this thing called a radical sanation that can fix things, should your siblings want to have the Church recognize their marriage. 

One of the many hats I wear is tribunal advocate, where I help people get annulments and clarify their status in the Church. Anyone who is a baptized Catholic has to get married according to Church form, otherwise it's not a valid marriage because Catholics are held to a higher standard. That's just the way it is. 

But there's this thing called a radical sanation. It means "healing from the root." Sometimes, the Church can use an administrative process that will recognize the original exchange of consent as a valid marriage when something was otherwise lacking. Usually this happens when a baptized Catholic doesn't get married in the Church, but later on starts practicing their faith again and wants to have their marriage recognized. This usually happens when there's significant evidence that the marriage is valid, like a long common life, raising children together, neither was married to anyone before, etc. Some judicial vicars are really happy to dole out radical sanations. Others are more stingy. My judicial vicar loves them. 

You can't call your local tribunal and get your siblings' marriages "fixed" because they don't concern you directly, but you can encourage your siblings to talk to their local priest to look into a radical sanation. You can hope and pray that they pursue it. In the meantime treat them with love and kindness and mercy. 

[Kevin]

3 minutes ago, KnightofChrist said:

Yes I'm sorry I thought that when she became Calvinist she would have publicly defected from the Church, but that requires her writing her Bishop.

My sister is in a similar boat, but she seems to have no wish to be married in any way, and least your sister has some bond. Mine made her choices she continues to live by them, all I can do is pray for her. My getting angry with the Church or leaving the Church will not make the Church wrong or anything any better than it is now.  It would just hurt me and make me something of a contradiction. I want her to accept the Faith so I must also. I'm sorry if we have not been able to calm you or give you the answer you wanted.

I only wish that a letter from the Bishop would be enough, but that was revoked after 2009.

The issue that I have is that while my sister may have become a Calvinist and that may make her a heretic, I can't accept that she is guilty of any sexual impurity because of a technicality.

[CatherineM]

Good Freaking Grief!

This is the carp that causes people to flee from Phatmass. 

Kevin, love your brother, sister and their spouses. My parents weren't married in the Church. Only one of my 5 brothers had a church wedding. It ended in divorce. I could pull out all my canon law training and bounce them against the walls of the confessional and tell them they have to adhere to the strict reading of every canon in order for me to have anything to do with them. It wouldn't change a single thing about any of their marriages. It would just make me look like the arrogant know-it-all little sister I was as a teenager. 

There are lots of things in Church law that you can't understand by a dry reading of isolated canons. There are issues of conscience. While we are required to properly form our consciences, some people's conscience will never allow them to follow rules to the letter. They are allowed to follow their conscience. 

The other thing to remember is that marriage is the only sacrament that isn't preformed by a priest. It is conferred by the couple on each other the priest or deacon is simply the Church's witness. When a couple who has been married for years enters the Church, they are not re-married in the Church. Their marriage is simply blessed by the Church. If they were to divorce later and seek an annulment, the Church wouldn't look to the validity of the marriage at the time of blessing, but rather would look back to the validity of the marriage from their original wedding.

Whether your brother or sister's marriage is valid now, might be in the future, or whatever, is ultimately Not up to you or a bunch of strangers on the Internet. Marriage is hard enough without it leading to family stress. There is a reason Pope Francis has call for a year of Mercy. Somewhere along the way, we've forgotten about the importance of mercy. 

If your ultimate goal is for them to get their marriages blessed in the Church, which tact do you thing will work best, praying for them and showing them the openess and Love of the Church, or cutting them out of your life?  Ultimately whether their marriages are sacramental or not is up to God. I personally think I'd find it more scandalous for a brother to cut off family members because he didn't approve of their marriages than for him letting them sleep under his roof in the same bedroom. 

[Kevin]

5 minutes ago, Basilisa Marie said:

You can't call your local tribunal and get your siblings' marriages "fixed" because they don't concern you directly, but you can encourage your siblings to talk to their local priest to look into a radical sanation. You can hope and pray that they pursue it. In the meantime treat them with love and kindness and mercy. 

If I had any impression that they were considering converting, I might tell them to do so. But I doubt they would care what the Church thinks of their marriage since they are, after all not even Catholic. Even if they were willing to get such a thing for my sake, I doubt the Church would give it to people who don't recognize the Church at all.

5 minutes ago, CatherineM said:

If your ultimate goal is for them to get their marriages blessed in the Church, which tact do you thing will work best, praying for them and showing them the openess and Love of the Church, or cutting them out of your life?  Ultimately whether their marriages are sacramental or not is up to God. I personally think I'd find it more scandalous for a brother to cut off family members because he didn't approve of their marriages than for him letting them sleep under his roof in the same bedroom. 

I don't know if you read the post in depth, but I am in agreement with you on most things. My concern is, how can I go on being Catholic if I am required to believe this? With other things, there are outs like invincible ignorance being the exception to the rule that there is no salvation outside the Church, but with this, it doesn't see like there's an out at all.

[little2add]

God bless you and your sisters Union

 There declaration of marriage and commitment to each other is  not a bad thing , in my opinion

keep the faith

Edited November 25, 2015 by little2add

[BG45]

Here's my two cents:  two people who have had formal canon law training have replied to this
And sadly a few of those people to also leave the Catholic Church.thread so far.  Both of whom seem to be the ones advocating mercy more than condemnation.  Ask a Tribunal.  Not trying to be mean, really I'm not, it's just that any possibly contentious issue is going to bring out the worst in PM posting, and not result in a lot of advice, as much as people sniping one another's positions and insinuating others aren't good enough.

What's happening with everything and the whole "is the marriage valid or not" stuff is heart-rending to read.  It, and the responses thus far, remind me of a thread on Reddit recently where a priest was going to not marry a woman and her future husband (and told them 2 weeks before the wedding), and some of the replies centered on the concept of, "Well the Church said 'no', a civil marriage would be invalid.  Go find someone else to love."  In the end, a few days later, an update said the priest had realized his mistake, and would be marrying them.  Mercy and forgiveness are things we often so look past without a second thought.

Quote

 

This is the carp that causes people to flee from Phatmass. 

 

 And sadly a few of those people to also leave the Catholic Church.

 

 

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

WWPFD--The first thing Pope Francis (and I think Jesus) would do is to give Kevin a big hug and comfort him for all the hurt he is going through. Yes, Kevin's posts sound angry, but in a lot of people (men especially, since society often condemns men for expressing emotions like hurt) sound angry when in fact they are hurting badly. Kevin obviously loves his sister very much, but just as obviously (to me, at least) loves the Catholic church. The fact that Kevin is even willing to bring up the possibility of leaving the Catholic church shows me how much he is hurting and how desperate he feels.

What happened to mercy? Why isn't the FIRST sentence in EVERY post in this thread an honest expression of sadness at the problems Kevin is grappling with. Speaking only for myself (and not for Phatmass), I don't think Jesus intended to establish a church that got so caught up in legal tangles and language that things like love, a heartfelt lifelong commitment to one partner, and support for the family, got lost in the legalities. I don't believe that that is the Catholic church's intention, but it happens.

Kevin--I am obviously not the one to help you with all of the issues of the Catholic church's definition of marriage. I am here to say that I see you hurting and that makes me very sad, and I will pray for you and your family.

One problem with the fact that the Catholic church has been around so long (usually a very good thing) is that there are now thousands of teachings and rules, and when new rules are made, it's virtually impossible for anyone to know ahead of time the impact that the change in one rule could have on all the othher rules, leading to unfair, or at minimum, unintended, consequences. 

Thank the Lord that Phatmass has CatherineM. Kevin, you may not know much about CatherineM, but she is not only one of the most knowledgeable people on Phatmass, but also arguably the member with the most real-life experience of people caught in legalistic mazes, and also the person who has shown the most mercy, love, and actual real-life help to others in need, despite facing very serious health issues of her own. CatherineM--Thanks for posting. You are able to say what I am not qualified to say. 

Kevin--We're glad you posted, and we really do care about the awful situation you are going through, even if we often forget to say it out loud in our zeal to provide an answer. 

 

Edited November 25, 2015 by IgnatiusofLoyola

[Nihil Obstat]

Kevin, there is too much anger, too much pride. Life is always hard, but the only true guide is Christ and the Church He set over us. Please pray, and cling to our holy and infallible doctrines.
The grace to be conformed to God's Will is attainable, but only if we use the only grace truly guaranteed to us: the grace to pray.