Seriously considering leaving the church because of position on sister's marriage

[Kevin]

I was trying to talk about this on the Catholic Answers forums, but they deleted the thread with out any explanation.

Basically, I was looking into the somethig about my brother's marriage being invalid, since it was only a civil marriage. There I came upon a bunch of recommendations from priests that such marriages are invalid and you should not go to them lest you cause a scandal by making it seem you approved of them.

Then I realized something. Apparently, the reason my brother's marriage was invalid and not even a natural marriage was because he had been baptized a Catholic, and doing so made him obligated to be married in the Church or with the approval of the Church or it was invalid no matter what. But that meant my sister, who converted to Calvinism in college and married another Calvinist, her marriage was invalid and not even a valid marriage. Some priests and assorted trads seemed to believe you shouldn't even allow two such people to stay in the same room in your house, because that would cause a scandal. So apparently, I the eyes of the Catholic church, my sister is not merely an apostate and a heretic, which I acknowledge she is, but it a fornicator on the same level of someone who picks up random people at bars for casual sex.

But even if I didn't go that far, I am still basically required, according to the Church, to consider them not married. I can't call my brother-in-law my brother in law because that would be a lie and a scandal. But if I someone asks me, do you really believe they are not married and I answered, yes, that would be a bald-faced lie. There's no way I don't believe they're married.

There have been so many things about the Church that have pushed me to the brink, like the fact that the Feeneyites have been let back in in spite of teaching heresy, or the stuff in Cantate Domino that would seem to suggest the martyrs in Libya earlier this year went straight to Hell. There are so many other things in addition to this.

I don't want to leave the Church, because I feel like I won't have anything at all to believe in without it---I certainly can't see myself being a Protestant, and one of the main reasons I have gotten on in Christianity at all is that there are certain Marian apparitions, mainly Fatima, that seems upon investigation to offer substantial support for it. But if Catholicism is wrong, there's no way I can cling to apparitions. So it's like there's no hope at all for me. Either I say my sister isn't married, which I can't, or I say Catholicism isn't true, which means Christianity isn't true and leaved me with nothing but despair.

The only hope I have at this point is the fact that it used to be possible to make a Formal Act of Defection that was tied to just this issue---the validity of the marriages of Baptized Catholics who leave the Church to have valid marriages. If it was something that was once allowed, I suppose that wouldn't make it an infallible teaching that my sister isn't married, since a rule that can be changed obviously isn't set in stone one way or the other. It's really the only thing I have at the moment.

[Nihil Obstat]

Why are you unable to accept that one of the consequences of your sister's actions is the invalidity of her attempted marriage?

[blazeingstar]

CAF is often right but harsh.

The church does recognize the right to natural marriage, and that people do marry outside of the fold.  Your sibling is in invalid, natural marriages.  Now, calling your brother-in-law a brother-in-law, I don't feel is scandalous in any way.  They do have a natural marriage, just not a valid one.  Now if you want to be legalistic and get after them, then by all means do so.  However, it sounds like you want to be at peace with this.  Be at peace....you'll do far more good with that than throwing out the church or throwing them to the wolves.

PS.  There is no way to Not be Catholic.  The formal acts of defecation are really for those countries which use taxes to fund the church.

[MarysLittleFlower]

11 minutes ago, blazeingstar said:

CAF is often right but harsh.

The church does recognize the right to natural marriage, and that people do marry outside of the fold.  Your sibling is in invalid, natural marriages.  Now, calling your brother-in-law a brother-in-law, I don't feel is scandalous in any way.  They do have a natural marriage, just not a valid one.  Now if you want to be legalistic and get after them, then by all means do so.  However, it sounds like you want to be at peace with this.  Be at peace....you'll do far more good with that than throwing out the church or throwing them to the wolves.

PS.  There is no way to Not be Catholic.  The formal acts of defecation are really for those countries which use taxes to fund the church.

My understanding is that natural marriages are those that are between unbaptized people and they are valid. Marriages between Catholics who didn't get married in the Church would be invalid. I think those two things are different? Natural marriages are valid and they are for non Christians. Catholics though are bound to have a Sacrament for validity. Am I correct? 

[KnightofChrist]

Since she is an Calvinist and Calvinism is a sect of Christianity she has not made a complete abandonment of the Christian faith. She is therefor not an apostate.

[MarysLittleFlower]

1 hour ago, Kevin said:

I was trying to talk about this on the Catholic Answers forums, but they deleted the thread with out any explanation.

Basically, I was looking into the somethig about my brother's marriage being invalid, since it was only a civil marriage. There I came upon a bunch of recommendations from priests that such marriages are invalid and you should not go to them lest you cause a scandal by making it seem you approved of them.

Then I realized something. Apparently, the reason my brother's marriage was invalid and not even a natural marriage was because he had been baptized a Catholic, and doing so made him obligated to be married in the Church or with the approval of the Church or it was invalid no matter what. But that meant my sister, who converted to Calvinism in college and married another Calvinist, her marriage was invalid and not even a valid marriage. Some priests and assorted trads seemed to believe you shouldn't even allow two such people to stay in the same room in your house, because that would cause a scandal. So apparently, I the eyes of the Catholic church, my sister is not merely an apostate and a heretic, which I acknowledge she is, but it a fornicator on the same level of someone who picks up random people at bars for casual sex.

But even if I didn't go that far, I am still basically required, according to the Church, to consider them not married. I can't call my brother-in-law my brother in law because that would be a lie and a scandal. But if I someone asks me, do you really believe they are not married and I answered, yes, that would be a bald-faced lie. There's no way I don't believe they're married.

There have been so many things about the Church that have pushed me to the brink, like the fact that the Feeneyites have been let back in in spite of teaching heresy, or the stuff in Cantate Domino that would seem to suggest the martyrs in Libya earlier this year went straight to Hell. There are so many other things in addition to this.

I don't want to leave the Church, because I feel like I won't have anything at all to believe in without it---I certainly can't see myself being a Protestant, and one of the main reasons I have gotten on in Christianity at all is that there are certain Marian apparitions, mainly Fatima, that seems upon investigation to offer substantial support for it. But if Catholicism is wrong, there's no way I can cling to apparitions. So it's like there's no hope at all for me. Either I say my sister isn't married, which I can't, or I say Catholicism isn't true, which means Christianity isn't true and leaved me with nothing but despair.

The only hope I have at this point is the fact that it used to be possible to make a Formal Act of Defection that was tied to just this issue---the validity of the marriages of Baptized Catholics who leave the Church to have valid marriages. If it was something that was once allowed, I suppose that wouldn't make it an infallible teaching that my sister isn't married, since a rule that can be changed obviously isn't set in stone one way or the other. It's really the only thing I have at the moment.

Kevin, I'm a convert and I had to change many of my views in my conversion. I know its difficult to do. I would advise to trust that the teachings of the Church are true. I know its not always easy, especially if it means something like your sister not being in a valid marriage. You can still be kind to her and see her as your sister of course. Seeing her marriage as invalid doesn't mean hating her. Also since she probably doesn't realize this its not like her intent is like people who go to bars to pick up partners etc. Just hope and pray that in time, she would come back to the Church and receive the Sacrament. Loving our family members and friends doesn't mean always agreeing with them... We need to trust that the Church teaches these things for a reason, and it does.. There's a theological reason for its teachings.  

As Knight said your sister is not an apostate but Calvinism is heresy. Her marriage would be invalid because she was baptised Catholic and Catholics are bound to get married in the Church. As for the Feeneyites and Cantate Domino, I don't know what that's about but its not a doctrine of the Church... More like something that was done (in the first case) and someone's opinion (in the second). Maybe it would help to stop reading too many things online and just go to Adoration, pray, and ask for God's grace :) we can't do anything without His grace. Our reason only goes so far and our wills need His grace too. 

[Kevin]

21 minutes ago, MarysLittleFlower said:

Kevin, I'm a convert and I had to change many of my views in my conversion. I know its difficult to do. I would advise to trust that the teachings of the Church are true. I know its not always easy, especially if it means something like your sister not being in a valid marriage. You can still be kind to her and see her as your sister of course. Seeing her marriage as invalid doesn't mean hating her. Also since she probably doesn't realize this its not like her intent is like people who go to bars to pick up partners etc. Just hope and pray that in time, she would come back to the Church and receive the Sacrament. Loving our family members and friends doesn't mean always agreeing with them... We need to trust that the Church teaches these things for a reason, and it does.. There's a theological reason for its teachings.  

No, it is exactly the same as her picking up random men in bars, according to the Church. And the fact that she doesn't know, how is that relevant at all? If I told her, "You know, the Church considers your marriage invalid and me and dad are required to hold you and x are committing fornication, and if we don't we are heretics too" I'm sure her response would be "Well, thanks for confirming that I made the right decision in leaving the Church in the first place if it requires my family to view my marriage as a non-marriage."

I'm through with just towing the line when things the Church says are insane. I give up. I'm done with the Church.

46 minutes ago, blazeingstar said:

CAF is often right but harsh.

The church does recognize the right to natural marriage, and that people do marry outside of the fold.  Your sibling is in invalid, natural marriages.  Now, calling your brother-in-law a brother-in-law, I don't feel is scandalous in any way.  They do have a natural marriage, just not a valid one.  Now if you want to be legalistic and get after them, then by all means do so.  However, it sounds like you want to be at peace with this.  Be at peace....you'll do far more good with that than throwing out the church or throwing them to the wolves.

PS.  There is no way to Not be Catholic.  The formal acts of defecation are really for those countries which use taxes to fund the church.

According to this asinine rule, its not even a natural marriage. And the formal defection was specifically in reference to marriage, until they stopped doing it.

I'm sick of the Church and its bizarre legalistic approach to the faith. I won't be a part of this group that insults my family by saying she is committing fornication and requires me to do the same. I'm done.

56 minutes ago, Nihil Obstat said:

Why are you unable to accept that one of the consequences of your sister's actions is the invalidity of her attempted marriage?

Because it is insane. The marriages of atheists and other Protestants are fine, they commit no wrong when they have sex, but my sister the Puritan is apparently has as loose sexual morals as a prostitute because she converted to another Church. I can't even call my brother-in-law my brother-in-law since that would be "scandalous", when the real scandal is being forced to deny it, and would if nothing else just confirm that her decision to get out of the Church was the right one. Let me ask you, how can you accept such madness except for the fact that you are willing to do and believe anything the Church tells you without questioning it.

[Kevin]

41 minutes ago, KnightofChrist said:

Since she is an Calvinist and Calvinism is a sect of Christianity she has not made a complete abandonment of the Christian faith. She is therefor not an apostate.

Like this amounts to anything in the eyes of the Church! Just look at Cantate Domino

"It firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart “into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels” [Matt. 25:41], unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church"

So not only will my sister go to hell, but these Coptic Christians who died with the name of Jesus on their lips, all went directly to hell. This is what the Church teaches! I can't pretend I accept this anymore! 

[KnightofChrist]

18 minutes ago, Kevin said:

No, it is exactly the same as her picking up random men in bars, according to the Church. And the fact that she doesn't know, how is that relevant at all? If I told her, "You know, the Church considers your marriage invalid and me and dad are required to hold you and x are committing fornication, and if we don't we are heretics too" I'm sure her response would be "Well, thanks for confirming that I made the right decision in leaving the Church in the first place if it requires my family to view my marriage as a non-marriage."

No, not so according to Pope John Paul II

There are increasing cases of Catholics who for ideological or practical reasons, prefer to contract a merely civil marriage, and who reject or at least defer religious marriage. Their situation cannot of course be likened to that of people simply living together without any bond at all, because in the present case there is at least a certain commitment to a properly-defined and probably stable state of life, even though the possibility of a future divorce is often present in the minds of those entering a civil marriage. By seeking public recognition of their bond on the part of the State, such couples show that they are ready to accept not only its advantages but also its obligations. Nevertheless, not even this situation is acceptable to the Church. - Familiaris Consortio

 

4 minutes ago, Kevin said:

Like this amounts to anything in the eyes of the Church! Just look at Cantate Domino

"It firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart “into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels” [Matt. 25:41], unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church"

So not only will my sister go to hell, but these Coptic Christians who died with the name of Jesus on their lips, all went directly to hell. This is what the Church teaches! I can't pretend I accept this anymore! 

Are you here to ask questions or to rail against the Church?

[Kevin]

1 minute ago, KnightofChrist said:

No, not so according to Pope John Paul II

There are increasing cases of Catholics who for ideological or practical reasons, prefer to contract a merely civil marriage, and who reject or at least defer religious marriage. Their situation cannot of course be likened to that of people simply living together without any bond at all, because in the present case there is at least a certain commitment to a properly-defined and probably stable state of life, even though the possibility of a future divorce is often present in the minds of those entering a civil marriage. By seeking public recognition of their bond on the part of the State, such couples show that they are ready to accept not only its advantages but also its obligations. Nevertheless, not even this situation is acceptable to the Church. - Familiaris Consortio

This isn't even relevant. My sister didn't have a civil marriage, she had a marriage with a Protestant minister that, had she not be baptized a Catholic, would have been not only a valid marriage but a sacrament. She is in fact probably far more religious than me in the way she lives. But the Church still views her on the same level as prostitute, and all I see here is a cop out that tries to say one thing ("It's not comparable to co-habitation") while the doctrine that says the marriage is not valid and not even natural says the opposite ("It's the same thing as co-habitation")

[dominicansoul]

Kevin, I would just step back and breathe a little and pray.  You sound very upset and you really aren't making sense.  I don't see how your Sister who is in some sort of Calvinist marriage could be like a whore who picks up men in bars...

It's obvious you love your sister very much, but look...we are all called to Love God more.  God has given us a set of commandments to live by, we can't just put those aside and call them "insane."

For what its worth to you, I'll be praying for you to get through these emotions and anger and start seeing things for as they really are.  God loves his children, and we are called to love  Him in return.  Many times in the New Testament, the Lord says, "If you love me, you will keep my commands."  Love your sister and treat her with respect and dignity.  Pray for her.  I had a loved one who wasn't married but living in sin with his girlfriend for many many years.  Finally, after years of praying for him, he returned to the Church and was married, had all his children baptized and is now living a life in Faith.  He seems happy even though life has definitely become more difficult for him (because that's the way it is when you want to get closer to God.)   I never showed him disdain or disgust towards him.  I showed him nothing but love.  Do the same with your sister.  And have a bit of mercy on God and His Church.

 

 

 

[NadaTeTurbe]

What is Cantate Domino ? Is it something written by the Church before V2 ? 

[Kevin]

8 minutes ago, dominicansoul said:

Kevin, I would just step back and breathe a little and pray.  You sound very upset and you really aren't making sense.  I don't see how your Sister who is in some sort of Calvinist marriage could be like a whore who picks up men in bars...

It's obvious you love your sister very much, but look...we are all called to Love God more.  God has given us a set of commandments to live by, we can't just put those aside and call them "insane."

Canon Law used to say, ""Canon 1117 - The [canonical] form established above must be observed if at least one of the parties contracting marriage was baptized in the Catholic Church or received into it and has not defected from it by a formal act, without prejudice to the prescripts of canon 1127, §2."

This was overturned in 2009 by Pope Benedict. So in fact, supposing my sister had been married during the time when you could make a formal defection between 1983 - 2009 and been in the same situation but having made a formal defection, there would be no problem whatsoever. If this is something that was handed down on high from God, then how was it something on which canon law could just flip flop. The validity of her marriage or not depended on the fact she was married three years too late. You even compared my sister to your brother who was living in sin, and your right that in the eyes of the Church, that's how it is; and yet it all falls down in her case on a technicality. That seems pretty insane to me.

Edited November 25, 2015 by Kevin

[NadaTeTurbe]

Kevin, instead of asking this on a catholic forum, you should ask your question to a canon lawyer. 

[Kevin]

1 minute ago, NadaTeTurbe said:

Kevin, instead of asking this on a catholic forum, you should ask your question to a canon lawyer. 

You know, that might be a good idea.

Well, at this point, I'm just going to try to calm down. I admit this issue makes me very mad at the Church. I probably spoke too soon when I made it sound like I was out of the Church. But I can't pretend that the apparent teaching on this issue makes sense to me, nor can I pretend that it not making any sense doesn't matter.

I am sorry if I was uncharitable toward anyone personally. I shouldn't be mad at individuals in any case.