Dom Marmion book question

[MarysLittleFlower]

Rose, thank you for your post, but I honestly don't think the Church (or people in it) is being "mean" in this.. Virginity is something beautiful spiritually and I understand what happened through my choices. It is a loss. If i am called that doesnt mean its possible even to deserve it. I dont deserve salvation; it is a gift too. I don't think that the others are not sinners, of course, but I see the gravity of my sins and they were quite serious and mortal.

I'm curious now do you mean an actual Cardinal in your post who believes that about sisters? I thought the discussion among some people in the Church has been about CVs? They do need to be literal virgins.. Do you mean about them or Sisters? I just never heard that Sisters/nuns need to be virgins for validity - only about CVs. That's what lead to my question about many books still talking about virginity. Anyways, just wondering i just wanted to say I understand why virginity would be emphasised because there's a theological reality behind it and it reflects the purity of God. I know I can live chastely now of course, its not the same as could have been since I could have consecrated my virginity too, and I can't consecrate what I don't have. I guess I just have to deal with that and somehow turn to God with more trust.. 

Edited November 24, 2015 by MarysLittleFlower

[MarysLittleFlower]

I do think I need to trust in God's love more than I do though.. 

Edited November 24, 2015 by MarysLittleFlower

[NadaTeTurbe]

In the same way, there is more joy in heaven over one lost sinner who repents and returns to God than over ninety-nine others who are righteous and haven't strayed away!

Luck 15:7 

Never forget that : God doesn't see your past, now, He see your repentance  

[dominicansoul]

Virginity is the ideal, but we're not living in ideal times.  The Sexual Revolution did a number on the world and continues to do so.  The church has been affected by it as well.  Several communities do not seek Virgins-only anymore.  They aren't saying virginity is not important, but instead, tend to look at the whole person, their life experience, where they are at in their relationship with the Lord and how, if so, does the community fit into this relationship?   These are sound, traditional, faithful-to-the-Magisterium communities.  Read Fr. Thomas DuBay's book, it is helpful.  Like Vee said above, this is not something to worry so much about.  IF God is calling you, He will work out the details.  I do want to say that communities may no longer look at virginity, but they do look for women who are balanced and mentally healthy.  They look for well-balanced individuals because religious life will wreck someone who doesn't have a handle on their religious scrupulosity or who obsesses over things.  I've been there.  I'll pray for you.  

[sr.christinaosf]

9 hours ago, MarysLittleFlower said:

. I have that book too. Does Fr Thomas Dubay ever explain that aspect? Dom Marmion does talk about virginity literally but he also seems to connect religious vows to being Christ's spouse and religious can be penitents too.. From what I gather. To me celibacy is all about having a completely undivided heart and giving God a more exclusive love. Dom Marmion seems to say that too. I love his book I just don't understand it in relation to me. 

There's actually a chapter entitled: "What is Gospel Virginity?" as noted in my review  (which has the whole table of contents)

 

[MarysLittleFlower]

3 hours ago, dominicansoul said:

Virginity is the ideal, but we're not living in ideal times.  The Sexual Revolution did a number on the world and continues to do so.  The church has been affected by it as well.  Several communities do not seek Virgins-only anymore.  They aren't saying virginity is not important, but instead, tend to look at the whole person, their life experience, where they are at in their relationship with the Lord and how, if so, does the community fit into this relationship?   These are sound, traditional, faithful-to-the-Magisterium communities.  Read Fr. Thomas DuBay's book, it is helpful.  Like Vee said above, this is not something to worry so much about.  IF God is calling you, He will work out the details.  I do want to say that communities may no longer look at virginity, but they do look for women who are balanced and mentally healthy.  They look for well-balanced individuals because religious life will wreck someone who doesn't have a handle on their religious scrupulosity or who obsesses over things.  I've been there.  I'll pray for you.  

DS, thanks for the reply, but I'm confused.. I thought that religious life was *always* open to non virgins, not just since the 60s? And I thought it was for all orders, excepting the very few who did consecration of virgins? I thought this from the beginning and now I'm not sure what the case is? Like could a non virgin enter Carmel 100 or 200 years ago? I thought she could? The reason I'm saying that is because I heard of women who've had annulments and others even being foundresses way before the sexual revolution... I thought this sort of thing was always allowed for widows, women with annulments or 'penitent' women 

3 hours ago, dominicansoul said:

 

Edited November 24, 2015 by MarysLittleFlower

[MarysLittleFlower]

3 hours ago, dominicansoul said:

 

I'm sorry it keeps quoting like that!

 

Thank you Sr Christina! I'll look it up

 

I did find this from Fr Z and it made me feel better that he sounds so definite on this  http://wdtprs.com/blog/2011/10/quaeritur-can-non-virgins-be-nuns/

"A non-virgin can indeed be accepted into religious communities. It has happened all through history."

I'll talk to my SD about the books... That's what made me wonder 

[MarysLittleFlower]

One of the comments from the Fr Z article gives more detail... Not about nuns cause Fr Z answered that but other things 

"2. I direct you to a passage I alluded to from Aquinas. The straight answer is that even God cannot make one a virgin again in every sense of the word. It is impossible. God cannot change the past, as that would imply a contradiction S. Th. II 152 a. 3 ad 3. But He can, by His grace, give repentance and through that the purpose of holy virginity can be recovered which is what is formal in virtue

“Virtue can be recovered by penance as regards that which is formal in virtue, but not as to that which is material therein. For if a magnificent man has squandered all his wealth he does not recover his riches by repenting of his sin. On like manner a person who has lost virginity by sin, recovers by repenting, not the matter of virginity but the purpose of virginity.

As regards the matter of virginity there is that which can be miraculously restored by God, namely the integrity of the organ, which we hold to be accidental to virginity: while there is something else which cannot be restored even by miracle, to wit, that one who has experienced venereal lust should cease to have had that experience. For God cannot make that which is done not to have been done, as stated in I, 25, 4. ”

In any case, just because virginity is an objectively higher state than marriage, doesn’t mean a non-virgin who observes conjugal chastity is “unfit” for Christ, or that someone who has repented of sinful lust is not truly justified by His grace. They may lack the “auereole” the crown given to virgins, but so too most of us will lack the crown of the martyrs. Martyrdom has its own special reward after all, but lacking that does not make one per se unfit"

I hope if non virgins can be nuns, that the things that Dom Marmion writes to religious can be applied to them too in terms of loving Christ exclusively and being His brides who give themselves to God completely.. Even though he talks about virgins when he talks about nuns, but since others can be nuns too... I hope their relationship with Christ can still be like that, even if they would not have the special reward of virginity. For myself though I can't consecrate virginity in the way St Thomas explains, I can offer to God the love I would have given to a spouse, and not loving anyone but Him. He has kept me from certain sins against chastity and occasions of them and I'm grateful for that. 

Edited November 24, 2015 by MarysLittleFlower

[dominicansoul]

33 minutes ago, MarysLittleFlower said:

DS, thanks for the reply, but I'm confused.. I thought that religious life was *always* open to non virgins, not just since the 60s?

No.  Maybe for some, but it was the exception and not the rule.  There was even a time when religious orders wouldn't allow illegitimate persons to enter.  All that was gradually changed, not necessarily by the sexual revolution.  

What I mean about the sexual revolution's effect is how society's attitudes radically changed on sexual behavior, and churchgoers were not immune to this radicalization.  From the 1960s on, society has viewed virginity as more of a joke, not something you want to treasure and hold on to.  For example, when I taught highschool CCD, many teens admitted to not being chaste and were sexually active.  I can't even explain the shock they expressed when I taught them this behavior is sinful.  Many scoffed at the mere mention of virginity and chastity.

Several young women I met on discernment retreats also felt like you do, and they would often come to retreats expecting to be told they couldn't enter.  It's still a part of the belief, that one must be a virgin to enter religious life.  And I can see why, when it's a life lived in complete celibacy. 

[MarysLittleFlower]

Yea... I just hope it wasn't a theological reason in terms of how the soul relates to Christ. As far as living chastely while having had a bad past, my life really changed through Our Lady's intercession as I was becoming Catholic and celibacy is not a burden to me now. I'm totally ready to be celibate forever and to me its a joyful thing. I'm not perfect in everything with chastity but by God's grace a lot has changed.

[SNJM]

I'm off to work, but wanted to respond quickly. There are quite a few communities that I personally know who who do in fact concentrate on the actual "physical" virginity thing. They might not advertise it as being a requirement, but they make it pretty clear in the beginning. They (in my opinion) are overly obsessed with this issue & act like their prospective candidates are preparing for religious life and that of a CV! There is more than one Cardinal outspoken on this, but it is my guess (only a guess) that they are following the better known one from the CV group/federation/assembly - not sure how they identify themselves. 

You've received excellent advice here, I doubt I could add more except be gentle with yourself. 

 

[MarysLittleFlower]

Hmm.. I wonder why these communities stress virginity to enter with them? Is there a theological reason of how they view religious life or is it practical like just having an easier time with celibacy? The reason is kind of significant to me.. Its just confusing because I just read from Fr Z, a very traditional priest, that non virgins could always be nuns.

As for the Cardinal, do you mean he spoke on CVs and people are applying that to RL, or do you mean that he spoke about virginity and religious life particularly? My understanding is that what the Cardinals are saying is on the topic of being a CV, not about being a nun? Sorry its still unclear to me... 

I'm still trying to understand because this has nearly caused me a crisis of faith and I just want at least my intellectual understanding to be correct so I can have more peace 

Edited November 24, 2015 by MarysLittleFlower

[NadaTeTurbe]

Maybe it's a cultural thing more than a religious thing. There is a community in France where the foundress (who died a few years ago) refused to welcome postulant who had divorced parents. Sometimes we can't fight the influence of our culture. 

Edited November 24, 2015 by NadaTeTurbe

[MarysLittleFlower]

16 minutes ago, NadaTeTurbe said:

Maybe it's a cultural thing more than a religious thing. There is a community in France where the foundress (who died a few years ago) refused to welcome postulant who had divorced parents. Sometimes we can't fight the influence of our culture. 

I hope its like that too.. I don't think there's any theological reason to refuse admittance to someone from a broken family, from what I know. The reason I started to wonder if with virginity its more than cultural, is because virginity is linked theologically to vocations - though its linked most to being a CV. But if non virgins could historically be nuns, then any community that refuses that has their own particular reason, not a general religious life reason 

I read about St Rita, St Clare's mom, and others, being nuns... This was long ago! 

Edited November 24, 2015 by MarysLittleFlower

[marigold]

I hope we can get a priest's or theological scholar's verdict on this, in order to put MLF's mind to rest.

And I know that everybody here is offering thoughts in order to be helpful, but they may not be aware that MLF has struggled with scrupulous and obsessive tendencies, which - as with all of us - zoom in on the parts where we are most fragile, so throwing out comments with unsubstantiated hearsay which appear to confirm MLF's worst fears is not helpful.