Dom Marmion book question

[MarysLittleFlower]

There's a great book by Dom Marmion called Sponsa Verbi. Its beautiful but there's something I just can't understand... It talks about religious life but connects it to virginity. So what happens if someone is a religious and vowed to live in perfect chastity but doesn't have a good past? I'm sorry I know I asked this before but I still don't get it, specifically about this book. Dom Marmion says all who are religious are spouses of Christ, but why does he then only talk about virginity in that context? Am I missing something here? Here's the book online.. http://www.liturgialatina.org/benedictine/sponsa.htm

This is something that is honestly confusing to me :( 

[Charbel]

If you have confessed your sins and are living chastely in your current state in life, then you have nothing to worry about. Remember, some religious had husbands/wives before they entered. They were not virgins, but God still called them.

Jesus is saying to you right now "Little one, why are you worrying? Trust in My goodness and see that I will take care of you"

I will pray that this topic will be cleared up for you, I know it can be stressful to not understand

[MarysLittleFlower]

Thank you Charbel I'm going to try and spend time with Our Lord about this. I just don't understand why the book addresses all religious but then only talks about the virgins. Hopefully He would help me with this because my past from before my conversion to Catholicism causes me pain to think about though its from so long ago and been confessed. I know I'm forgiven but I feel so unworthy of a vocation and I don't get why books for religious talk so much about virginity... I understand the beauty of it but I relate most to St Mary Magdalene, St Margaret of Cortona, etc, and I really like Bl Angela of Foligno too who was married but lived a worldly life at first...  they give me hope. 

Edited November 24, 2015 by MarysLittleFlower

[Swami Mommy]

MLF, for what it's worth, you are perseverating again and driving yourself crazy over spilt milk and that one man's opinion/belief paradigm from a long, long time ago.  I believe you talked about this book before and had the same questions about it.  You are not a virgin. So what?  Truly, in this day and age and cultural milieu no one really cares about your sexual history except you, including any order that you may seek to join, as long as you are celibate now and you are not continuing to dwell on your past as an ongoing psychological issue for yourself (that is the real problem).  Your past behavior is merely a memory of a time that no longer exists, and has no bearing on the present moment except for the power you are giving it to ruin your peace of mind.  At your essential core of pure spirit, you are NOT your body and never were; you are the unchangeable, inviolate essence of THAT.  Focus on the purity of your feelings of love for God whenever you notice that you are indulging in repetitive scrupulosity, and realize that on a meta-physical level, virginity/chastity in the religious context of consecrating oneself wholly to God is more about the abiding commitment of mind and heart to remain fully turned toward the Divine, than about the presence or absence of a hymen.  I don't mean to sound harsh, but ya gotta let this go, girl, or you're never gong to be able to move forward in fulfilling your vocation, if you feel you have one.  Oh, and by the way, I have no doubt that Pope Francis would tell you to relax, too, and would probably hold your hands in his, look very kindly and deeply into your eyes, and tell you that you are loved and worthy to be a religious just as you are.  He is compassionate and merciful, and as God's representatitve for the Catholic Church he would certainly not bar you from religious life if he has welcomed homosexuals with open arms. Think about this.

[sr.christinaosf]

I think the term 'virgin' should be seen in a broader sense...It doesn't just mean 'someone who has never been sexually intimate.  St. Paul speaks about 'the virgin, or unmarried woman.'

Fr. Thomas Dubay's book, ...And You Are Christ's (which I did a review on in our blog), has a subtitle about virginity; it has more to do with living a life of single-hearted dedication to Christ than about what our past might be.  

[Lilllabettt]

2 hours ago, MarysLittleFlower said:

 I know I'm forgiven but I feel so unworthy of a vocation and I don't get why books for religious talk so much about virginity... 

Because the vast majority of women religious are never marrieds.

I know how you feel. Catholic literature for the vocation of marriage is geared towards the beauty of sex leading to conception. I can't have kids. I know when I pick up a book probably 50% of what is in there is not relevant to me, and can actually be painful to me to read - a reminder of what I have lost. 

It's not a sign I am not called to marriage. It's a sign that I am not like other girls.

Lets be real. If you are called to religious life, you are not like other girls. But if you are a non-virgin called to religious life, you are not even like other Sisters. You are rare among the rare.

You should rejoice in this. It means God intends you for some special purpose and an ordinary person would not do. The price of being unusual is that a lot of what is fashioned for the world will not apply to you. It is a Cross. Embrace it.

 

1 hour ago, Swami Mommy said:

  At your essential core of pure spirit, you are NOT your body and never were; you are the unchangeable, inviolate essence of THAT.  

FYI, this is nonsense according to MLF's religion. 

[Swami Mommy]

Lillabett, I can only speak from personal experience. I had a near death experience in the early 90's and on the other side I experienced myself as THAT, not as the small personality of Pam with a back story.  I was filled with the ecstasy of an all-inclusive Love that embraced everything in its scintillating Light as particles of its very own Self. That may not be what the Catholic Church teaches, but it is what I personally experienced on the other side of the veil.  

7 minutes ago, Lilllabettt said:

Because the vast majority of women religious are never marrieds.

I know how you feel. Catholic literature for the vocation of marriage is geared towards the beauty of sex leading to conception. I can't have kids. I know when I pick up a book probably 50% of what is in there is not relevant to me, and can actually be painful to me to read - a reminder of what I have lost. 

It's not a sign I am not called to marriage. It's a sign that I am not like other girls.

Lets be real. If you are called to religious life, you are not like other girls. But if you are a non-virgin called to religious life, you are not even like other Sisters. You are rare among the rare.

You should rejoice in this. It means God intends you for some special purpose and an ordinary person would not do. The price of being unusual is that a lot of what is fashioned for the world will not apply to you. It is a Cross. Embrace it.

 

FYI, this is nonsense according to MLF's religion. 

 

[Lilllabettt]

2 minutes ago, Swami Mommy said:

That may not be what the Catholic Church teaches, but it is what I personally experienced on the other side of the veil.  

 

You are correct that it is not what the Church teaches. The meaning of the Incarnation, the fact that God took flesh, means that our bodies matter, that they are an integral part of our identity, and that they are not rotting shells to be shucked off but palaces which will be redeemed, made whole, and restored to us for all eternity on the last day. 

I hope MLF will correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think she is in a place where she can take spiritual advice from a Hindu woman.  If anything in what you say resonates with her, it is likely to just make her more nervous ,as she is fearful of anything that could lead her astray from Jesus. That is a shame, because you have many potentially helpful things to share. But I don't think you are in a position to be helpful. No disrespect at all intended.

 

 

[MarysLittleFlower]

Swami Mommy, I think what was meant is that sins stay in the soul unless repented of and what we do with our bodies affect the soul. We can still feel God's love but He also calls to repentance, lovingly Being a virgin and giving that to God is not just the presence of a hymen, its actually a spiritual reality too of having no earthly love... and marriage does affect that because its an act of self giving. Soul and body are connected. Marriage is good but celibacy does have a certain exclusivity to it, and virginity is related to this. All are called to be saints though of any vocation.

my issue is trying to understand a strong pull towards giving God this exclusive love and giving Him the love that would have been for a spouse, while having a bad past. I am living celibately and regarding my past, without going into too much detail, I never did the obvious sin that takes away virginity. But I still sinned gravely and from what I read there are various sins that take away virginity. I'd have to maybe ask my confessor on this - its been absolved but just for more info. 

37 minutes ago, sr.christinaosf said:

I think the term 'virgin' should be seen in a broader sense...It doesn't just mean 'someone who has never been sexually intimate.  St. Paul speaks about 'the virgin, or unmarried woman.'

Fr. Thomas Dubay's book, ...And You Are Christ's (which I did a review on in our blog), has a subtitle about virginity; it has more to do with living a life of single-hearted dedication to Christ than about what our past might be.  

I hope so much that is how it is... I have that book too. Does Fr Thomas Dubay ever explain that aspect? Dom Marmion does talk about virginity literally but he also seems to connect religious vows to being Christ's spouse and religious can be penitents too.. From what I gather. To me celibacy is all about having a completely undivided heart and giving God a more exclusive love. Dom Marmion seems to say that too. I love his book I just don't understand it in relation to me. 

Edited November 24, 2015 by MarysLittleFlower

[Swami Mommy]

In respectfully honoring your own particular religious beliefs regarding the soul which differs from my Eastern perspective, I will defer my comments on any future posts in this thread.  My intent was not to confuse you with an alternative way to approach your question, but rather to offer you a space in which to trust that you are worthy regardless of your inability to put your past to rest in your heart.  

[MarysLittleFlower]

29 minutes ago, Swami Mommy said:

Lillabett, I can only speak from personal experience. I had a near death experience in the early 90's and on the other side I experienced myself as THAT, not as the small personality of Pam with a back story.  I was filled with the ecstasy of an all-inclusive Love that embraced everything in its scintillating Light as particles of its very own Self. That may not be what the Catholic Church teaches, but it is what I personally experienced on the other side of the veil.  

 

Its not for me to comment on experiences of other people, its for spiritual directors, but I think an experience is one thing and interpreting it as another. For example dying and feeling you no longer have a body and feeling God's love, and that He made us and is omnipresent, can be interpreted different ways perhaps. That's where I think we rely on God's revelation as Truth not just our experiences. Even valid ones we can misunderstand. Im saying nothing about validity or non validity for yours, im making a different point. God has given us all Truth in Christ and everything else conforms to that. Everything that happens to me I interpret based on my faith, which comes first :) because whatever happens to me, I am certain Christ came in the flesh and gave us all Truth in Himself. :) 

45 minutes ago, Lilllabettt said:

Because the vast majority of women religious are never marrieds.

I know how you feel. Catholic literature for the vocation of marriage is geared towards the beauty of sex leading to conception. I can't have kids. I know when I pick up a book probably 50% of what is in there is not relevant to me, and can actually be painful to me to read - a reminder of what I have lost. 

It's not a sign I am not called to marriage. It's a sign that I am not like other girls.

Lets be real. If you are called to religious life, you are not like other girls. But if you are a non-virgin called to religious life, you are not even like other Sisters. You are rare among the rare.

You should rejoice in this. It means God intends you for some special purpose and an ordinary person would not do. The price of being unusual is that a lot of what is fashioned for the world will not apply to you. It is a Cross. Embrace it.

 

FYI, this is nonsense according to MLF's religion. 

I guess all this is making me wonder if I'm called :) I'll have to keep discerning and talk to my SD. My discernment is something so personal and deep for me in my relationship with God, at this point. I know what you mean about literature! It can be painful when you can't relate to what they are describing as something beautiful. A good friend of mine is in a situation much like yours. 

8 minutes ago, Swami Mommy said:

In respectfully honoring your own particular religious beliefs regarding the soul which differs from my Eastern perspective, I will defer my comments on any future posts in this thread.  My intent was not to confuse you with an alternative way to approach your question, but rather to offer you a space in which to trust that you are worthy regardless of your inability to put your past to rest in your heart.  

I am sure you have a good intent in posting Swami Mommy! I do see what you mean. I guess maybe its a difference in how vocations are approached... Because the way I've understood it is that a consecrated vocation is not something its possible to even be worthy of, its a sheer gift and God chooses whom He wills. I can't make Him choose me. I'm just dealing with my heart wanting this very much. God bless you :) 

Anyway thank you everyone for being patient with me :) I'm sorry I ask the same questions sometimes. Its just been a rough day with this. I'll talk to my SD too. 

[chrysostom]

If I ever manage to enter religious life you can be sure it will be as a penitent.  A hopeful, enchanted one, but a penitent nonetheless.

[MarysLittleFlower]

13 minutes ago, chrysostom said:

If I ever manage to enter religious life you can be sure it will be as a penitent.  A hopeful, enchanted one, but a penitent nonetheless.

Me too so much is trusting in His goodness! A priest said - what's the one thing we can do completely without God? The answer: sin. Haha. Of course our natures are not depraved, rather weakened, but all good we have was given by God. He is all goodness and whom He calls is a mystery. He calls some to reach others. 

5 hours ago, Charbel said:

If you have confessed your sins and are living chastely in your current state in life, then you have nothing to worry about. Remember, some religious had husbands/wives before they entered. They were not virgins, but God still called them.

Jesus is saying to you right now "Little one, why are you worrying? Trust in My goodness and see that I will take care of you"

I will pray that this topic will be cleared up for you, I know it can be stressful to not understand

I just wanted to add thank you for the quoted part I often think of myself as His "littlest" one. It was moving to read. God bless you

Edited November 24, 2015 by MarysLittleFlower

[vee]

Mary's little flower, I think once you get to know some communities better you could mention any concerns and they will most certainly address them!

im not perfect, no one is, and early on I thought one had to be practically perfect in every way to even consider religious life. I mentioned this to a nun and boy did she give me a lecture worthy of the finest preacher!  It was epic and I'll never forget it so put those concerns on the back burner and consider more where and leave the how to God. 

[SNJM]

I actually think Swami Mommy is correct, through some of her language is not language we use or maybe are comfortable with. A couple things MLF: LOTS of saints had terrible, terrible, terrible pasts. Augustine comes immediately to mind. As far as the Church concerns, you were born anew the day you were baptized. Your sins were washed away. You were given new life. Did the priest actually turn your body into a baby body and extend your life span? No, and here's where SM is right - you are NOT your body. If, God forbid, you lost both your arms and legs, you would not be less than YOU. You have a soul. Your soul is what connects you to God. Your soul is what is searching for Him. Your soul is what is what is restless until it rests in Him. Catholics believe in eternal life. We know we bury the dead, it's one of the corporeal works of mercy. WHO has the eternal life? Our spirits! Our souls!!! Not our bodies.  I'm not sure how the resurrection of the dead is going to work out for those cremated (I think it was already mentioned), but SM was right in the essence of what she was saying. There is a very mean and punitive streak which runs through people, and sadly, even Catholics. To make you feel "less than a REAL virgin" is wrong and frankly, nobody's business. You are in the process of trying to figure out how to best give yourself to God, totally. You still can. Your earlier deeds have been forgotten and you are in the midst of the Father's mercy right now. Now, I'm sure somebody is going to quote the Cardinal who is fascinated with women being virgins in order to be nuns/sisters & how they can't give the gift of themselves wholly without having everything intact to give to Him. If that were true, then that argument erases the validity of the Sacraments!!! If you are living a chaste life right now, and want to give this gift to Him, you can do so. It's still a gift, and it's still a sacrifice. I don't believe you have to end up as a penitent nun, in fact, you are welcomed and invited to give God your all, and to quote Nother Nary Francis, PCC + RIP, You HAVE A RIGHT TO BE MERRY! NOW. You made mistakes in the past. We all have. Thomas Merton comes to mind. I could spend the rest of the night naming saints with a past. That's because every saint has a past & every sinner has a future. To pretend we are not all sinners is insane and unhealthy. I would ask you to do some research on what your conversion meant and what Baptism did for you. He gave you life, and to quote from a good friend: You are the daughter of a King. Now, take that beautiful knowledge, embrace your new life in Christ and know you stepped out of darkness into light. And please, stop listening/reading what people have to say which end up making you feel horrible. You are precious beyond all measure. 

Rose