Are you saved?

[Guest]

15 hours ago, Josh said:

If a person truly understands mortal sin then you know for sure when you're out of it. At least I do. It's trickier knowing when you're in it since there are 3 conditions to make a grave sin mortal and habits and other things determine if a grave sin becomes mortal. 

I meant to say it's trickier to know *when you fall into it.* 

[Guest]

To the original question I think it's very important to know where you're going. If you take the idea of an eternity (I can't even comprehend eternity) of being TORTURED and without hope for FOREVER and EVER how can you not want to know where you will be? We didn't ask to be here as far as I know. From my understanding of theology I didn't tell God to create me or ask Him to. I'm thankful for life and it's beautiful. I would rather be created then uncreated and I love God and want to be with Him for eternity. The idea is thrilling and I pray this is all real and God exist. I honestly believe He does. Although this world can be a very scary place. I think it's important for a persons sanity to know the promises we have of God's love and our salvation. I really believe consciousness is fundamental in the universe. Because of consciousness there is matter and quantum physics. Consciousness and the law written on humans hearts point towards a Creator. Along with the fine tuned laws that allow planets and stars to form and the universe to expand. For life to evolve and be able to comprehend these ideas and observe reality and question it and wonder the reason for it all. So the idea of a soul and heaven, purgatory and hell doesn't seem far fetched to me. I think one should meditate everyday on where they are going to be for eternity. And whenever possible know and trust in God's promise He will never forsake us. Especially when you're fresh out of Confession and it was valid.

Edited November 23, 2015 by Guest

[Guest]

22 minutes ago, Josh said:

To the original question I think it's very important to know where you'. If you take the idea of an eternity (I can't even comprehend eternity) of being TORTURED and without hope for FOREVER and EVER how can you not want to know where you will be?

I forgot to add if you take the idea of hell SERIOULY and ACTUALLY BELIEVE it then you have no choice but to worder where you're going to be. It's not like hell is being uncreated and just going out of existence. No it's literally being conscious with a body and being TORTURED FOR ETERNITY WITHOUT IT EVER ENDING. I comfort sooooooo soooooo much in the truth that I'm saved by GRACE THROUGH MY FAITH IN JESUS WHO WAS PERFECT AND DESIRES TO LOVE AND FORGIVE a person like me. And that He will never forsake and I will always call on His name and pray to His Holy Mother. Amen.

Edited November 23, 2015 by Guest

[Guest]

And Pray I never hear these words....“Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” 

 “Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”

 

[Peace]

On 11/22/2015, 10:51:43, Josh said:

The Hypothetical was if you died right then. Not talking 8 hours from then when you could fall into grave sin. Or even 2 hours from then. Talking right at that moment like you proposed. This is why I love the debates on you tube about this. Protestants make some very strong arguments. There argument even makes more sense when Purgatory is understood. As a Catholic though i agree with what the Church teaches about mortal sin. And it makes sense to me at the end of the day.

OK. You mean the very instant you open the door of the confessional you get hit with a sniper's shot? Your chances of going to Heaven are pretty good in that scenario. I will concede you that.

6 hours ago, Josh said:

To the original question I think it's very important to know where you're going. If you take the idea of an eternity (I can't even comprehend eternity) of being TORTURED and without hope for FOREVER and EVER how can you not want to know where you will be?

I don't know. I certainly like to think that I am going Heaven as opposed to Hell. That does motivate my actions. But as I mentioned earlier in this thread - I think that there better things to worry about, or to spend one's time thinking about, than that.

[KnightofChrist]

I've been trying to reply to your post Peace for the last couple days. But every time I do something prevents me and I don't know why but I can't get your post to break up so I can reply to each part of it. I haven't given up though.

[Papist]

On 11/19/2015, 1:03:39, Peace said:

Yup. That's right folks. I have converted back to being a Protestant. And with that my very first act shall be to ask you "If you were to die today, do you know if you would be going to Heaven or Hell?"

Just kidding of course.

I was hoping to get some other people's opinions about this. I have been thinking a lot lately about my own spiritual development and my own motivations. Especially around the time of my conversion, I guess you could have called me a bit of a child. My mindset was kind of like "Well - I have to do XYZ or I cannot do ABC because if I do not comply I will be cast into the hot flames of hell".

Now - there is nothing wrong with that. Fear of the Lord is a good thing. Not wanting to go to hell is a good thing too. If that fear motivates a person to keep from sinning and it works then I don't think that is a problem. But this mindset is not really one that is sustainable in the long run, I think. You have to have some deeper reason or motivation to refrain from sin, to do good works, etc. So I have been trying to get to this other place.

The reason why I titled this topic "Are you saved?" is because I think the question itself kind of indicates that type of juvenile mindset. People tend to put this idea of going to heaven (or conversely staying out of hell) on some kind of pedestal, as if it is the ultimate end to be achieved in itself. But I don't think that is right.

It seems to me that "Are you saved?" is not really a question that we should be asking, either to ourselves, or to other people. A much more relevant question to me seems to be "Do I love God? Do I want to see Him? Am I willing to die for Him the way that He died for me?" Whether one can answer these questions in the affirmative seems to be a lot more important than answering the "Are you saved?" question.

I had mentioned it in another thread - but recently I saw a movie about St. Thomas More called "A man for all seasons." At the end of the movie just before he is about to be executed he says "God would not refuse one who is so blithe to go to Him." To me - I kind of think this is what it is about. Are we blithe to see God? Do we do our good works and refrain from sin because we do not want to be punished, or do we do those things because we love God and we want to please Him?

So I guess for me I am still trying to develop. I am trying to have that same desire to see God or to please God that the saints have.

Just some more random thoughts I guess . . .

Don't know what you mean by "on some kind of pedestal", but going to heaven IS the goal and ultimate end.  I have always paused to answer the ARE YOU SAVED question.  To say yes is to say I am going to heaven regardless of how I live. I have come to ask back, what to you mean "saved?".  

This simple, yet profound, quote from St. Augustine has always come to mind when being saved topic comes up.  "Love God and do as you please."   Augustine seems to think that if we love God we are not going to offend him and so don't need any "rules". What we want to do is please God. So if that is what we want to do, then we really can do what we want. 

 

[Peace]

3 hours ago, Papist said:

Don't know what you mean by "on some kind of pedestal", but going to heaven IS the goal and ultimate end.  I have always paused to answer the ARE YOU SAVED question.  To say yes is to say I am going to heaven regardless of how I live. I have come to ask back, what to you mean "saved?".  

This simple, yet profound, quote from St. Augustine has always come to mind when being saved topic comes up.  "Love God and do as you please."   Augustine seems to think that if we love God we are not going to offend him and so don't need any "rules". What we want to do is please God. So if that is what we want to do, then we really can do what we want. 

 

Hmm. I dunno if I would say Heaven is the goal. I think the goal is to see God face to face. Heaven just so happens to be where He is.

As for the "pedestal" - the point was that our primary motivation should not be obtaining "paradise" or avoiding hell-fire. Our motivation should be to have a good relationship with God, or to do as God wills for us because we want to please Him.

When people ask the question "Are you saved?" they do not really seem to ask "Do you love God? Do you want to have a relationship with Him? Would you give your life for Him?" When people ask the question I think the idea is more along the lines of "Are you going to spend eternity in paradise or roast in Hellfire?" I think the question misses what is important.

That is why I think "Do I love God? Do I want a relationship with God?" is a better thing to think about than "Am I saved?"

[chrysostom]

3 hours ago, Peace said:

Hmm. I dunno if I would say Heaven is the goal. I think the goal is to see God face to face. Heaven just so happens to be where He is.

At that point it's just semantics.  Heaven/eternal life is the state/place in which one will know God as He is.  For the purposes of this conversation I feel it's a little trivial to make distinctions at this point.  God came so that we may have just such eternal life.  To desire such a thing is good and true and right and the best goal there is.  It is also more or less equivalent to desiring God in Himself.  I don't see the point of making it any more complicated.

[Peace]

15 minutes ago, chrysostom said:

At that point it's just semantics.  Heaven/eternal life is the state/place in which one will know God as He is.  For the purposes of this conversation I feel it's a little trivial to make distinctions at this point.  God came so that we may have just such eternal life.  To desire such a thing is good and true and right and the best goal there is.  It is also more or less equivalent to desiring God in Himself.  I don't see the point of making it any more complicated.

No. I do not think that is just semantics. I already explained the reason why. If you disagree with that, that is fine by me.

[KnightofChrist]

On 11/19/2015, 4:10:13, Peace said:

Well. Don't get me wrong. It is a concern of mine on some level. I'm not exactly walking the streets like "I could care less whether I go to Heaven or Hell!" Far from it.

I think that when Protestants say "being saved" they do not mean "staying in a state of grace". That is more of a Catholic concept that they don't quite get or accept for the most part. I think that when they say "being saved" they refer to it in a sense that is closer to what we would call the "particular judgment". The exact moment at which your fate is sealed for all eternity. Being in a state of grace (at least before your death) is something that can change from second to second according to our actions (sinning or going to confession).

Just to clarify, I did not mean "all men". I just meant you in particular, as opposed to all of mankind. Under the hypothetical it would presumably please God that person X goes to Heaven and that person Y goes to Hell (I think this is what Calvinists actually believe).

I don't think I can answer your question though. I think your question proves why the hypothetical cannot be true. But again - I already conceded that. It is a hypothetical that I posed in order to explore an idea. I think that we can imagine abstract situations an analyze them (I do realize that some folks are not naturally disposed to doing that, however, if that is not your cup of tea).

We're talking about "once saved always saved." This teaches of course once we are "saved" we are once and forever sealed. But if later a "saved" person does something a "saved" person shouldn't it means they weren't really "saved" as once thought. Which is odd of course, so long as there is free will on Earth we can turn away from God and towards sin or turn from sin and back to God.

Even in the what if case were God deems man X to be damned and man Y to be saved that's still a really messed up God. Yes,  Calvinists believe God predestines or causes some people for hell and some for heaven. Rather than allow each person by their free will to choose between heaven and hell by choosing to love God or love sin. If that was the case then we would be more like automatons. We would be locked into being good like fire is hot or being evil like ice is cold. God would be a dictator who deemed that those in his favor would be saved no matter what and others would be judged and sentence to death even before they were born.

On 11/19/2015, 4:10:13, Peace said:

But anyway - is it really a valid question for a Catholic to ask? Should we ask whether we are "saved" or "in a state of grace" as though we can know the answer with certainty? I do not think that we have assurance of salvation in the way that Protestants believe they do. We know in an academic sense that one who dies in a state of grace goes to Heaven, but whether or not we are actually in a state of grace is not something that we can know with 100% certainty - is it? I just went to confession yesterday and have not committed any grave sins since then. I have confidence that I would go to Heaven if I die today, but for me to ask "Will I go to Heaven now if I died today?" seems to be somewhat of a pointless question as we cannot know for certain. It seems that a much more relevant question for me to ask today is "Do I love God? Is there anything in my life that I would be unwilling to part with if God asked me?"

What we can and should do is trust in the promises of Christ. If we follow him and endure until the end of our lives to live as he taught us to live we can be assured of our salvation. We can't have the same assurance Protestants have because we can't assure ourselves that we will never turn to sin at some future point. We aren't fortune tellers lol.

If we died right after a valid confession committing no sin before death we would go to heaven. Of course we must remember God is our judge and not ourselves. It is put to him to judge. But again he did tell us to trust in him, to trust in promises of Christ and follow him all the days of our life faithfully and we will be saved. The answers to the questions of "Do I love God? Is there anything in my life that I would be unwilling to part with if God asked me?" would likely be the answer to the question "Will I go to heaven if I died today?"

On 11/19/2015, 4:10:13, Peace said:

I mean - we make prudential judgements about whether or not we are in a state of grace in order to determine whether we should receive communion, etc. but I don't think that our Church allows us to say that we "know" we are in a state of grace or would go to Heaven, unless we have been given a private revelation by God on the matter. So spending time on a question that we cannot know the answer to with certainty does not seem very productive (I realize that I am giving a different reason for my conclusion this time).

Well Saint Joan of Arc answered the question of whether she was in God's grace by saying 'If I am not, may God put me there; and if I am, may God so keep me.'" I think that's a good answer to the question.

On 11/19/2015, 4:10:13, Peace said:

I think it has been sufficiently demonstrated by many philosophers and moral theologians that hypothetical questions have value.

Fair enough. Then it would seem that you would answer the hypothetical in the same way that I would. Is that correct?

LOL. I already agreed that the hypothetical is inconsistent with what we believe about God. Although I might add that some Calvinists seem to believe that God hates the reprobate and actually damned them to hell before the world was even created.

Well I just don't like what if question because they can be so complex and so perplexing. One what if can change so much of what is and before we know it we're assuming many what if's rather than just the original.