Pray for ISIS

[Didacus]

The saints tell us to pray every day that the hells are empty. May God have mercy on all those who lost their way in life. May God have mercy on us all!

[KnightofChrist]

I'm not one to tell people how to pray or what to say, but...I'm praying for the total destruction of ISIS and that they all drop dead before they try another horrible attack against anybody...I guess I can pray that hopefully in the process of dropping dead they ask God for forgiveness?  Iono, they dont' even believe in Jesus, so I think this is gonna take some extra flogging...

As individual persons who can see the error of his or her ways and convert I will pray for "ISIS" as a terrorist, ideological and wicked group which is bent on butchering all that do not submit to it I will pray for its destruction. 

[Era Might]

And it came to pass, when the days of his assumption were accomplishing, that he steadfastly set his face to go to Jerusalem. And he sent messengers before his face; and going, they entered into a city of the Samaritans, to prepare for him. And they received him not, because his face was of one going to Jerusalem. And when his disciples James and John had seen this, they said: Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them? And turning, he rebuked them, saying: You know not of what spirit you are. The Son of man came not to destroy souls, but to save. And they went into another town.

--Luke 9:51-56

[John Paul]

I love this bishop I read his article every week in the Catholic Newspaper.

[Seven77]

As individual persons who can see the error of his or her ways and convert I will pray for "ISIS." As a terrorist, ideological and wicked group which is bent on butchering all that do not submit to it I will pray for its destruction. 

Fixed.

I pray the same. If someone were to ask me what I meant by “destruction," I would say disbanding-- a result of the conversion of its members.

Edited November 20, 2015 by Seven77

[KnightofChrist]

Fixed.

I pray the same. If someone were to ask me what I meant by “destruction," I would say disbanding-- a result of the conversion of its members.

Thank you.

Yeah I tried to go back and fix that when I noticed but it was too late.

[Socrates]

I actually don't disagree with you Socrates. I didn't even think that was possible.

At least the second time you've made such a remark.  It only works the first time, you know.

Yeah. Thanks for the clarification. I meant "pray for the people who are members of ISIS". I did not mean that we should pray for the success of the organization itself. It is a point that goes without saying, but worth clarifying nonetheless.

It's all good.

I also agree that turning away from that type of evil is necessary for their well being. I would certainly pray for their conversion. But I do not think that our prayers need to be necessarily limited to that. If some of them are hungry (I have no idea if this is the case) you could also pray for those sort of things as well.

I believe in the just war doctrine, of course. But you can still pray for them.

If your point was simply that our prayers as well as our actions should be motivated by true love and charity rather than thirst for vengeance, I agree.

But I don't think Christian charity demands that we pray that the ISIS terrorists keep happy, healthy, and safe from harm as they go about their business of killing, raping, enslaving, and torturing all who oppose them.  (I'm not saying I think that's what you meant, but I thought clarification was in order.)   To do so would show callous disregard for the good of their victims, as well as their immortal souls, and justice.

Quite frankly, it would be much better that terrorists go hungry than that they be well-fed as they perpetuate their evil atrocities.  The Church teaches that moral evil is much greater than physical evil, and the good of the soul greater than that of the body.  I don't think you can really separate the well-being of the terrorists from their conversion and repentance.

What is "misplaced love"? Love, at least as I understand it, is not something that can be misplaced. So when you put "love" in quotes - exactly what definition of "love" are you using there? When I say love I mean love. I do not mean some warped version of it that is not truly love. . .

I also do not think that we should desire that they be physically harmed, or killed. There are situations where we may have to physically harm them or kill them as a matter of necessity, but the internal desire or prayer that a non-violent solution may occur should not change, I think. I don't know if the "If we have to kill them then oh well, so be it" attitude is exactly the one that we should have.

What I meant by "misplaced love" would be opposing any actions to fight ISIS and their evil actions by force on the grounds of a pacifistic desire not to harm the terrorists - where "love" of the enemy takes precedence over love for their real and potential victims.  (Again, probably not your intent, but that's what I'm referring to.)

While we certainly should pray, I'm afraid that, barring a miracle, deadly force is indeed necessary to stop ISIS and protect others from their horrific crimes. 

Edited November 21, 2015 by Socrates

[Peace]

 

At least the second time you've made such a remark.  It only works the first time, you know.

Certain things must be repeated for the benefit of our reading audience.

It's all good.

I would not have imagined that you were an M.C. Hammar fan. I learn something new about you each time.

If your point was simply that our prayers as well as our actions should be motivated by true love and charity rather than thirst for vengeance, I agree.

But I don't think Christian charity demands that we pray that the ISIS terrorists keep happy, healthy, and safe from harm as they go about their business of killing, raping, enslaving, and torturing all who oppose them.  (I'm not saying I think that's what you meant, but I thought clarification was in order.)   To do so would show callous disregard for the good of their victims, as well as their immortal souls, and justice.

Quite frankly, it would be much better that terrorists go hungry than that they be well-fed as they perpetuate their evil atrocities.  The Church teaches that moral evil is much greater than physical evil, and the good of the soul greater than that of the body.  I don't think you can really separate the well-being of the terrorists from their conversion and repentance.

What I meant by "misplaced love" would be opposing any actions to fight ISIS and their evil actions by force on the grounds of a pacifistic desire not to harm the terrorists - where "love" of the enemy takes precedence over love for their real and potential victims.  (Again, probably not your intent, but that's what I'm referring to.)

While we certainly should pray, I'm afraid that, barring a miracle, deadly force is indeed necessary to stop ISIS and protect others from their horrific crimes. 

And so we reach the heart of your response. And a mighty fine response it was, I might add.

Again - I agree that certain wars are just.  I did not write anything about not taking action against ISIS. If war or military action against ISIS meets the conditions of a just war then I do not have any problem with it. I generally think that military action is necessary as well. But that is a different question of what we should desire, and what we should pray for, I think.

I don't think that we should wish or pray that anyone should go hungry. Again - if you were in grave error and unaware or indifferent to it, would you want me to pray for you to starve to death or to be destroyed, or would you want me to pray for you to turn from your evil ways? We are called to do to others as we would have them do to us.

Have you seen that movie "A man for all seasons"? As you may have been able to discern by now, I seriously love this movie. At the end of the movie a person named Rich gives false testimony against St. Thomas More, which ultimately leads to St. Thomas More being put to death. Now, perhaps the logical or prudent thing for St. Thomas More to have done would have been to ask God to strike Rich dead before he gave his false testimony. But I can't see Thomas More making such a prayer. After Rich gives his false testimony, he says "In good faith, Rich, I am sorrier for your perjury than my peril." So, he cares more about the well-being of the person who has testified against him than his own death? It is not the logical thing for a person to do. It is what a saint did. What Jesus asks us to do, I think, is radical. It defies our own logic. He asks us to wish our enemies well. So I do not think that we can hope that they starve to death, even as they attempt to kill us. We should wish them well (and of course, that does not mean that we should wish that they continue to sin).

I think I understand the point you want to make though. You seem to want to say that we should be praying, first and foremost, that they turn from their moral error. You are saying that if experiencing starving or some other physical harm is something that causes them to turn from their moral errors, then ultimately that is a good thing. I think this is a valid way of looking at it.

The point where I might disagree is that I think you might be looking at it a bit too "logically". When we pray, I think we pray for what is ideal and with the knowledge that God is fully capable of granting what we pray for. A "miracle" is not really needed. If we ask God that those terrorists should be well-fed, happy, healthy, and safe from harm, and that every bullet they shoot should miss its mark, and that that every bomb they plant shall fail to detonate, if God so wills it, it shall be done.

Edited November 21, 2015 by Peace

[dominicansoul]

Praying for the destruction of ones enemies is not wrong.  Psalms are filled with those words.  Like Seven posted, this means that their sick attachment to sin is destroyed.  But if that doesn't happen....  I mean, I understand we fight principalities of darkness, but understand that some humans have allowed full possession of their minds and hearts to these principalities.  The only solution against their malicious brutality is for them to be wiped out.  Happened throughout the Old Testament.  God is not a pacifist.  Christians shouldn't be either.  We are not the murderers here we are defenders.  Self defense is not murder.  

 

[veritasluxmea]

Praying ISIS becomes waswas. 

[Peace]

Praying for the destruction of ones enemies is not wrong.  Psalms are filled with those words.  Like Seven posted, this means that their sick attachment to sin is destroyed.  But if that doesn't happen....  I mean, I understand we fight principalities of darkness, but understand that some humans have allowed full possession of their minds and hearts to these principalities.  The only solution against their malicious brutality is for them to be wiped out.  Happened throughout the Old Testament.  God is not a pacifist.  Christians shouldn't be either.  We are not the murderers here we are defenders.  Self defense is not murder.  

 

Perhaps. The old testament talks about dashing babies heads against rocks and rejoicing about it. I don't think that gives us a license to do those sort of things, and the Church is still to a certain extent trying to figure out what to do with a lot of those so-called "dark passages" of the Bible. It seems to me that Jesus holds us to a standard that is higher than what you see in the OT. He says, "it is written that you shall not commit adultery, but I say to you that anyone who even looks at a woman lustfully commits adultery with her in his own heart." It is a higher standard, I think. The same for the call to love our enemies.

[Credo in Deum]

Should we not pray for ISIS?

I was thinking about this when reading the thread on Syrian refugees.

We are to love our enemies and pray for those who persecute us. And that includes ISIS does it not?

And when I say "Pray for ISIS" it should not only be "Pray that they are converted so that they no longer have a desire to harm us." We should earnestly pray for their well-being as they desire and attempt to kill us? We should pray for them with the same love that we pray for our family members?

Is that crazy? Doesn't that sound crazy? But Jesus truly demands of us a love that is radical, right?

A few days ago I watched a movie called "A man for all seasons" about St. Thomas More. I was truly touched by the story of this man, who was willing to give up his own life rather than sign something as simple as a piece of paper. That just seemed crazy to me, but that is really what we are called to. A love that almost seems crazy.

Just some random thoughts I guess.

Yes, we should pray for those who are in ISIS and for the salvation of their souls.  We do not have to pray that they have health while hurting us or that their plans to hurt us come to fruition since this would be the opposite of praying for their salvation.  You can pray that God enlighten their minds and touch their hearts so that they may see that they are persecuting the Church, Jesus Christ.   On top of praying for this intention we can also offer sacrifices, even small daily ones, for their conversion like: not having that morning cup of coffee or drink it black with no cream, do not eat all of your meal but leave a bite after, walk instead of take the elevator, do some chore without being asked, etc.  All things can be offered to God for the conversion and salvation of sinners. 

Yes, to the world this love sounds crazy because it is true love, sacrificial love, and is thus a contradiction to the selfish love the spirit of the world talks about and constantly promotes.  

Lastly, "A Man for All Seasons" is an amazing movie.  The more you watch it the more you will appreciate it.  The writing and acting is superb.

 

[dominicansoul]

6 hours ago, Peace said:

Perhaps. The old testament talks about dashing babies heads against rocks and rejoicing about it. I don't think that gives us a license to do those sort of things, and the Church is still to a certain extent trying to figure out what to do with a lot of those so-called "dark passages" of the Bible. It seems to me that Jesus holds us to a standard that is higher than what you see in the OT. He says, "it is written that you shall not commit adultery, but I say to you that anyone who even looks at a woman lustfully commits adultery with her in his own heart." It is a higher standard, I think. The same for the call to love our enemies.

So all those holy people praying for the destruction of the nazis during World War II were wrong?  Those good guys who tried to assassinate hitler were not acting to a higher standard???  I totally disagree.  

[Gabriela]

19 hours ago, veritasluxmea said:

Praying ISIS becomes waswas. 

That's pretty clever. 

[Socrates]

On 11/20/2015, 10:56:36, Peace said:

Certain things must be repeated for the benefit of our reading audience.

 

And so we reach the heart of your response. And a mighty fine response it was, I might add.

Again - I agree that certain wars are just.  I did not write anything about not taking action against ISIS. If war or military action against ISIS meets the conditions of a just war then I do not have any problem with it. I generally think that military action is necessary as well. But that is a different question of what we should desire, and what we should pray for, I think.

I don't think that we should wish or pray that anyone should go hungry. Again - if you were in grave error and unaware or indifferent to it, would you want me to pray for you to starve to death or to be destroyed, or would you want me to pray for you to turn from your evil ways? We are called to do to others as we would have them do to us.

Have you seen that movie "A man for all seasons"? As you may have been able to discern by now, I seriously love this movie. At the end of the movie a person named Rich gives false testimony against St. Thomas More, which ultimately leads to St. Thomas More being put to death. Now, perhaps the logical or prudent thing for St. Thomas More to have done would have been to ask God to strike Rich dead before he gave his false testimony. But I can't see Thomas More making such a prayer. After Rich gives his false testimony, he says "In good faith, Rich, I am sorrier for your perjury than my peril." So, he cares more about the well-being of the person who has testified against him than his own death? It is not the logical thing for a person to do. It is what a saint did. What Jesus asks us to do, I think, is radical. It defies our own logic. He asks us to wish our enemies well. So I do not think that we can hope that they starve to death, even as they attempt to kill us. We should wish them well (and of course, that does not mean that we should wish that they continue to sin).

I think I understand the point you want to make though. You seem to want to say that we should be praying, first and foremost, that they turn from their moral error. You are saying that if experiencing starving or some other physical harm is something that causes them to turn from their moral errors, then ultimately that is a good thing. I think this is a valid way of looking at it.

The point where I might disagree is that I think you might be looking at it a bit too "logically". When we pray, I think we pray for what is ideal and with the knowledge that God is fully capable of granting what we pray for. A "miracle" is not really needed. If we ask God that those terrorists should be well-fed, happy, healthy, and safe from harm, and that every bullet they shoot should miss its mark, and that that every bomb they plant shall fail to detonate, if God so wills it, it shall be done.

If you agree with me repeatedly, it stops being shocking.

"I would not have imagined that you were an M.C. Hammar fan. I learn something new about you each time."

I actually wasn't aware he invented that phrase.  I just know he's too legit. . . too legit to quit.

 

I wasn't advocating we actively pray for people to starve and such.  But if you're really seeking the ideal best for evil-doers, I don't think you can exclude their conversion and repentance from that.  Doesn't make any sense to just pray that they miraculously be protected from harm yet fail in their evil actions without any desire for their conversion.  As long as they intend evil, they are still acting evilly, and at very least destroying their own souls.

If God wills ISIS suffer bloody defeat for their crimes, His will be done as well.

Also, being willing to suffer martyrdom oneself rather than deny one's Faith or its moral precepts is a a bit different than preferring that other people suffer martyrdom rather than physical harm come to evil-doers.  But, hopefully, that goes without saying.

(*"Quote" feature not working!)