Atonement vs Incarnation

[Basilisa Marie]

So I was talking with my boss (a priest) yesterday, and somehow we got on the subject of the paschal mystery and soteriology (salvation theology). 

On one end of the spectrum is the theory that I'm most familiar with - atonement. That God becomes human in order to atone for the sin of Adam, that Christ had to die on the cross in order to save us, much like a mathematical transaction. Only God can bridge the infinite gap between humanity and God, caused by our sin. The problem with it is that it basically means that Judas' betrayal becomes necessary for the whole thing to work, which basically means that Judas had to sin in order for salvation to come about, and that doesn't seem right. It also raises the question of whether or not the incarnation would have been necessary in God's plan, had we not sinned. 

He brought up an alternative, a more Franciscan school that he says Bonaventure really liked. The idea is that the whole life of Jesus is what brings about salvation, the Incarnation through his death. The incarnation was always part of God's plan, and that because we sinned we created a world that reacted to Jesus by murdering him. The benefit of it is that it seems to put the whole onus of sin on humanity, that sin is never part of God's original plan, that we didn't somehow screw up God's plan to the point where he had to shift everything around and do something new, etc. The problem with it seems like if taken too far, it can belittle the cross or make the cross totally irrelevant. 

What do you guys think? 

[KnightofChrist]

I'm not sure it would be necessary for Judas to sin against Christ for Christ to be put on the Cross. Would those that wanted to have Christ put to death given up  if Judas had chosen not to betray Christ? I doubt it. Even before going to Judas they attempted various methods to turn the people or the state against Christ. Which if successful would have discredited him and would have been cause in their minds to put him to death. At some point after all those attempts failed they gave up on trying to trick him or out think him and just decided that they would kill him. Which is why his trials were bogus, the verdict had been reached even before he was brought into the various courts.

Also I believe the incarnation would have still been part of God's plan should the fall of man had not happened. God would have still loved us dearly, which is main cause of his sending his Son, God became one of us because he loves us.  Now of course because of the fall, because of sin Christ also gave his life to save us because he loves us. But had the fall not happened, I believe he would have loved us every bit as much to become one of us.

I agree that every part of his life upon the Earth brought about salvation. Do you remember the scene from the Passion of the Christ, where as a little boy he fell and bruised his knee? One drop of his blood would have been enough to save the whole world.

When you say that sin was never part of God's plan it reminded me of something Venerable Archbishop Fulton Sheen said about the free will of man, sin and the need for salvation through Christ.

He said “Picture an orchestra on stage with a celebrated conductor directing the beautiful symphony he himself composed. Each member of the orchestra is free to follow the conductor and thus to produce harmony. But each member is also free to disobey the conductor. Suppose one of the musicians deliberately plays a false note and then induces a violinist alongside of him to do the same. Having heard the discord, the conductor can do one of two things. He could either strike his baton and order the measure replayed, or he could ignore the discord. It would make no difference which he did, for the discord has already gone out into space at a certain temperature at the rate of about 1100 feet a second. On and on it goes, affecting even the infinitesimally small radiations of the universe. As the stone dropped in a pond causes a ripple which affects the most distant shore, so this discord affect event the stars. As long as time endures, somewhere in God’s Universe there is disharmony, introduced by the free will of man. Could the discord be stopped? Not by man himself, for man could never reach it; time is irreversible, and man is localized in space. It could, however, be stopped by the Eternal coming out of His agelessness into time, laying hold of the false note, arresting it in its flight. But would it still be discord in God’s Hands? No! Not if God wrote a new symphony and made the false note its first note! Then all would be harmony again.”

Adam introduced death into the world, a false note. God then took that false note and introduced his Son into the world and defeated death, which is the new symphony, ie Christ makes all things new.

 

[CatherineM]

Jesus knew what Judas was going to do. Parents often know the mistakes their kids are going to make, but we still let them make them. 

[Era Might]

Rene Girard just died, he was a French intelluctual who had a profound theory of mythic sacrifice. In his argument sacrifice was the only way to create peace in a world of mimetic desire, i.e., where we imitate each other and then turn on eachother because we cannot stand a rival. To create peace, we seek a sacrificial victim who becomes a divine "other" who bears our mutual violence and becomes the social outlet for envy and hatred. Girard argued that what was different about Jesus was that, whereas a victim previously bore true guilt that (in their eyes) denied any guilt for the community, with Jesus even those who killed him recognized their guilt. Thus, Jesus destroyed the very basis of sacrifice, because it could no longer bring peace, his sacrifice was one of eternal guilt exposing the false logic of sacrifice. He destroyed mimetic desire...the new law would be mercy and love, not judgment and sacrifice. Rather than striving to be alike, which was the sin of Satan, Jesus humbled himself and gave himself up. That would be the new law, he who would be the greater must be the lesser.

Edited November 5, 2015 by Era Might

[NadaTeTurbe]

René Girard just died ? It's a true loss for this world. He converted to catholicism while writing his main book. Prayers for his soul and his family. 

[Seven77]

When you say that sin was never part of God's plan it reminded me of something Venerable Archbishop Fulton Sheen said about the free will of man, sin and the need for salvation through Christ.

He said “Picture an orchestra on stage with a celebrated conductor directing the beautiful symphony he himself composed. Each member of the orchestra is free to follow the conductor and thus to produce harmony. But each member is also free to disobey the conductor. Suppose one of the musicians deliberately plays a false note and then induces a violinist alongside of him to do the same. Having heard the discord, the conductor can do one of two things. He could either strike his baton and order the measure replayed, or he could ignore the discord. It would make no difference which he did, for the discord has already gone out into space at a certain temperature at the rate of about 1100 feet a second. On and on it goes, affecting even the infinitesimally small radiations of the universe. As the stone dropped in a pond causes a ripple which affects the most distant shore, so this discord affect event the stars. As long as time endures, somewhere in God’s Universe there is disharmony, introduced by the free will of man. Could the discord be stopped? Not by man himself, for man could never reach it; time is irreversible, and man is localized in space. It could, however, be stopped by the Eternal coming out of His agelessness into time, laying hold of the false note, arresting it in its flight. But would it still be discord in God’s Hands? No! Not if God wrote a new symphony and made the false note its first note! Then all would be harmony again.”

Adam introduced death into the world, a false note. God then took that false note and introduced his Son into the world and defeated death, which is the new symphony, ie Christ makes all things new.

 

Is that quote from The World's 1st Love? I remember reading it in the chapter on the Annunciation… great analogy.

[Seven77]

It seems to me that these 2 ways of understanding are not mutually exclusive. A good book on this is On the Incarnation by St. Athanasius. This is how I've come to understand the mystery of redemption:

1. Original Sin is another way of describing the brokenness that came into the world by the sin of Adam. In the Eastern Church this brokenness is collectively referred to as death-- the sin of Adam introduced death and its consequences (concupiscence, actual sin, etc). I like the way they kind of put things so simply. Jesus Christ came to bring life-- the cure to death.

2. Jesus does what Adam failed to do.  He came to recapitulate (or re-head everything as the new head of humanity) in himself… I like to think of it in terms of a factory producing a line of cars or something: after Adam, the human race began producing defective models with his stamp on it, then Jesus came, the new Adam, so that the human race could, through baptism, produce models with his stamp. Now the factory can produce human beings who are fully alive in Christ.

3. God became man in order that man could become like God. Jesus came down to us, shares our human nature--becoming our brother, thereby enabling us to share in his divine nature. He takes us up to his level through grace.

4. Jesus lived our life and died our death… he went through it all to sanctify it for us and to take the sting out… he made it possible for us to bear it because he bears it with us. The Lord is our shepherd… he went through the shadow of the valley of death before us…

5. On the cross, Jesus destroyed sin and death by taking it upon himself, by his resurrection, he--our brother--enables our humanity to be glorified with him, and him and through him.  We can conquer sin and death in him.

[KnightofChrist]

Is that quote from The World's 1st Love? I remember reading it in the chapter on the Annunciation… great analogy.

I cannot not recall. I remember it from his record/audio series "Life is Worth Living."  He loved to tell the same stories again and again so he probably made the quote repeatedly.