Brainwashed

[Basilisa Marie]

Nevermind. 

Edited November 6, 2015 by Basilisa Marie

[Guest]

Just want to publically apologize to Saint Alophonus. Obviously I got to worked up in the "Brainwashed" thread. I did not even know who Saint Alphonus was until @Credo in Deum posted a Sermon from him on the 2nd page. I listened to a little of it while already angry/debating and was installenly turned off when I heard 5 year olds in hell. Along with an 8 year old girl who dies unexpectedly after her first "serious sin". Apparently the death allowed by God and I would guess approved. I went on to call the idea of this toxic. Fear mongering. And brainwashing. I want to publically apologize for that. We will see in the end if the 5 and 8 year old who committed one serious sin is in hell. I'm going with no. But what do I know. God bless Saint Alphonus and I'm thankful to His service to the Church. @Credo in Deum posted another video by Saint Alophonus and I just took the time to listen to it in its entirety. It was good. It doesn't talk about 5 year olds burning forever in eternity. It deals with someone like myself. It reminds me how serious sin is and how God is not mocked. We reap what we sew. In the first video I had a problem with the idea God only forgives so many sins and then that's it. Or only forgives a certain sin so many times. I've always understood God's forgiveness to be extended every time we sincerely repent. And ultimately I think the second video echoes the thought I have of forgiveness. What I took from it is God is not deceived or mocked. I can't keep sleeping with this guy's wife and vainly telling God sorry while not stopping the affair. For the record I'm not sleeping with anyones wife just using that as example. The very wise warning I took from it is while I'm trying to get away sleeping with his wife I could die right after. My vain apologies that weren't sincere wouldn't be accepted by God for all the times I did it before because I wasn't truly repentant. So then I would die and face hell. I will post the video and thanks @Credo in Deum for recommending it. Apologies once again to Saint Alophonus. And anyone else I offended in the thread. While I still echo my thoughts about 5 year olds being in hell, I realize I got way to riled up. The fire n brimstone preaching tends to do that to me at times. At least when it involves kids and infants in hell. Being Catholic I understand we can't presume anything. Evidently even for 5 year olds who die. Though I'm assured over and over in Scriptures my faith will will never allow me to be lost, I understand as a Catholic I can never presume I will be saved.And it's a must I work out my salvation in fear and trembling. And I think that's a good idea. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of all wisdom. Apologies again to all who were offended. Saint Alphonus please pray for us. Amen.

Edited November 6, 2015 by Guest

[Guest]

I think a Mediator of Meh should lock this thread. A new thread can be started if we want to debate more about children in hell.

[Guest]

Just want to publically apologize to Saint Alophonus. Obviously I got to worked up in the "Brainwashed" thread. I did not even know who Saint Alphonus was until @Credo in Deum posted a Sermon from him on the 2nd page. I listened to a little of it while already angry/debating and was installenly turned off when I heard 5 year olds in hell. Along with an 8 year old girl who dies unexpectedly after her first "serious sin". Apparently the death allowed by God and I would guess approved. I went on to call the idea of this toxic. Fear mongering. And brainwashing. I want to publically apologize for that. We will see in the end if the 5 and 8 year old who committed one serious sin is in hell. I'm going with no. But what do I know. God bless Saint Alphonus and I'm thankful to His service to the Church. @Credo in Deum posted another video by Saint Alophonus and I just took the time to listen to it in its entirety. It was good. It doesn't talk about 5 year olds burning forever in eternity. It deals with someone like myself. It reminds me how serious sin is and how God is not mocked. We reap what we sew. In the first video I had a problem with the idea God only forgives so many sins and then that's it. Or only forgives a certain sin so many times. I've always understood God's forgiveness to be extended every time we sincerely repent. And ultimately I think the second video echoes the thought I have of forgiveness. What I took from it is God is not deceived or mocked. I can't keep sleeping with this guy's wife and vainly telling God sorry while not stopping the affair. For the record I'm not sleeping with anyones wife just using that as example. The very wise warning I took from it is while I'm trying to get away sleeping with his wife I could die right after. My vain apologies that weren't sincere wouldn't be accepted by God for all the times I did it before because I wasn't truly repentant. So then I would die and face hell. I will post the video and thanks @Credo in Deum for recommending it. Apologies once again to Saint Alophonus. And anyone else I offended in the thread. While I still echo my thoughts about 5 year olds being in hell, I realize I got way to riled up. The fire n brimstone preaching tends to do that to me at times. At least when it involves kids and infants in hell. Being Catholic I understand we can't presume anything. Evidently even for 5 year olds who die. Though I'm assured over and over in Scriptures my faith will will never allow me to be lost, I understand as a Catholic I can never presume I will be saved.And it's a must I work out my salvation in fear and trembling. And I think that's a good idea. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of all wisdom. Apologies again to all who were offended. Saint Alphonus please pray for us. Amen.

Saint Alphonus not Alophonus. Should of spell checked. It won't let me edit. Apologies.

Edited November 6, 2015 by Guest

[Guest]

"St. Alphonsus was born in the village of Marianella near Naples, Italy, September 27, 1696. At a tender age his pious mother inspired him with the deepest sentiments of piety. The education he received under the auspices of his father, aided by his own intellect, produced in him such results that at the early age of sixteen, he graduated in law. Shortly after, he was admitted to the Neopolitan bar. In 1723, he lost a case, andGod made use of his disappointment to wean his heart from the world. In spite of all opposition he now entered the ecclesiastical state. In 1726, he was ordained a priest. He exercised the ministry at various places with great fruit, zealously laboring for his own sanctification. In 1732, God called him to found the Congregation of the Most Holy Redeemer, with the object of laboring for thesalvation of the most abandoned souls. Amid untold difficulties and innumerable trials, St. Alphonsus succeeded in establishing his Congregation, which became his glory and crown, but also his cross. The holy founder labored incessantly at the work of the missions until, about 1756, he was appointedBishop of St. Agatha, a diocese he governed until 1775, when broken by age and infirmity, he resigned this office to retire to his conventwhere he died. Few saints have labored as much, either by word or by writing, as St. Alphonsus. He was a prolific and popular author, the utility of whose works will never cease. His last years were characterized by intense suffering, which he bore with resignation, adding voluntary mortifications to his other pains. His happy death occurred atNocera de Pagani, August 1, 1787."

[Guest]

[Gabriela]

I think a Mediator of Meh should lock this thread. A new thread can be started if we want to debate more about children in hell.

Why?

[Gabriela]

I think it's good you're publicly apologizing, Josh. I don't want to pour salt into a wound, but I do feel like you repeat this same scenario often: You get upset and go nuts in a thread, other people try to tell you to calm down, you attack them and escalate, ignore their attempts at correction, then after a time publicly apologize for the whole thread.

When that pattern repeats itself again and again, as it has with you, I would urge you to pay close attention when people are trying to correct you, and stop the cycle there. Just walk away for a while. It's clear that, once you've gotten some distance from the situation, you see reason. So maybe try to get distance sooner, before the escalation happens. You can know it's time by paying attention to how many people are disagreeing with you, and how ardently.

I'm not judging you. God knows I've flipped out on people before, too. I'm just pointing it out so that maybe you can avoid having to do this in the future. I hope it helps, and doesn't hurt!

[Credo in Deum]

Great thread, Josh.  I'm also sorry if I came off as uncharitable in the last thread.   I would recommend reading or listening to more of St. Alphonsus' sermons.  You will find that he, like Christ, is both serious and gentle, stern but uplifting!  Some other great works from him are: "How to Converse with God" and "12 Steps to Holiness and Salvation" which really appealed to me because of 12 step reasons.  

[Ash Wednesday]

Because we rarely hear about the hard teachings (sin and hell) -- I think people in general are often poorly conditioned to receive them and find them hard to stomach. People either don't acknowledge these things at all, or become despairing and scrupulous. Sadly there is no balanced and tempered approach about the hard things. I find some tough and heavy sermons or subjects easier to digest if I give it some time to process.

Hearing about hell is absolutely terrifying. Though often I suspect that the people that need to hear about hell and sin the most -- are the ones that mock it, don't believe in it, or just don't care.

[MarysLittleFlower]

Wrong Wrong Wrong Wrong Wrong. Not what I said. I SAID that if a 5 year old is in hell that is God choosing to torture a 5 year old in hell for eternity. I'm not talking about adults or even "13" year olds. Or fricking 8 year olds. Talking about a FIVE YEAR OLD. 5 year olds don't comprehend eternity and choosing hell for eternity. Luckily for me God (Jesus) loves the kids and says to let them come to him. He doesn't give a 5 year old the option "to choose" hell over being with Him. God is good. God is love. He doesn't set up 8 year olds and 12 year olds so they die right after their first sin and then go to hell as this video implies. Can't believe people attempt to defend this. It's unreal.

Josh, - last thing I'll say here I think we're speaking past each other. My whole point is that to me the main point of this is not whether someone is 5 or 8 or 12 or 99. The point of the story is that if someone chooses just one mortal sin, and refuses to repent, that leads to hell. The sermon is NOT saying that God would put someone in hell for an unwilled or "accidental" sin. So this story ASSUMES that the person in it chose the sin. Now whether a 5 year old is capable of sin, I leave that to God and the Church. Typically the "age of reason" is supposed to be around 8 years old when they do their first Confession. I remember I did wilful sins as a child. Maybe some kids "understand" more at different ages with this I don't know, the typical age is supposed to be around grade 2. Little kids before the age of reason clearly DON'T choose sin - but if they have the use of reason, they can. I leave it to the Church and whatever it teaches.

But no one - not me, not the sermon, not anyone else here - is saying that God would put someone in hell for a sin they didn't choose. Because the whole point of the sermon is choosing a mortal sin and then choosing unrepentance - that's what's it's about, not about age of reason... it's not a commentary on age. I think to be honest this is a distraction for you to think about, just let it go, and think about the meaning, and remember God's mercy

You're right it is what it is. The Church used to say infants went to hell. Saints said that only a few are saved and the few will watch the majority in hell and even rejoice at their agony. Thankful I can come to know my Creator through a personal relationship and get to know Him intimately and not have to rely solely on what others say about Him. When I hear an authoritive person of the Church say 5 year olds are in hell I can have confidence to know this isn't the case. That infants aren't in hell. That God really does love humanity and didn't die the death He did so a few of the best Catholics of all time could make it to Heaven and everyone else could burn for eternity in hell. Including 5 year olds.

I can know that The Gospel is Good News and not how 99 % of humanity burns forever in hell. Thank you Jesus. Thank you Mary. Thank you Father. Thank You Holy Spirit.

well the Church said the infants went to limbo, not hell... sorta different maybe some thought hell, but that wasn't mainstream

limbo is like natural happiness and no suffering

[MarysLittleFlower]

No prob Josh, and sorry if I've irritated you in the thread

I think that if this is something that happens to you, the advice a priest once gave me could be helpful to you as well. I was getting really anxious and distracted by things I read online.. and he suggested I just stop reading stuff and concentrate on my prayer life. Best advice ever!! It really helped and for a while I only read spirituality things not stuff that upset me.

I understand it's confusing about the age thing. I think that the age wasn't the main point of the sermon, rather about sin, so it's best to just leave that up to God and the Church it definitely wasn't saying that God would put someone in hell for an unchosen mortal sin - there's no such thing! It's only if they can choose it. The Church gives a guideline for the typical age kids are capable of sin, I don't know if there are exceptions, but it's ultimately not up to us. There are children who are Saints too! Like "little Nellie" https://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=7871

I think that if you read more by St Alphonsus, you will like him. He writes a lot of beautiful reflections about loving God and the Passion, life of Christ, etc. For example, these visits to the Blessed Sacrament: http://www.stalphonsusbalt.org/stavisits.htm

God bless you!

[MarysLittleFlower]

side question: what does taking the Lord's name in vain actually mean? Does saying "oh my God" all the time qualify? I always thought the second commandment was more about blasphemy, which requires a spirit of hatred towards God. jw

that is still taking Our Lord's name in vain I think. "in vain" is without referring to God, like not in prayer or serious discussion about Him. It is a very serious sin because the Lord's Name is holy. We can do reparation for this if we hear others do it.

@Josh

Whether or not there is a fixed number of times God will forgive a sin, one way or another God does only forgive sins so many times. Our lives are like those of grass, we grow and we live for but a short time, and then we are cut down. Our days upon the Earth are short, there is only a short time in which we can sin and repent of those sins for God to forgive.  If a man lives to be 52 and he commits the same mortal sin once every year and repents of that sin every year save for his last then the amount of times God will forgive that man of that sin is 51.  

Also it is possible that there are a fixed number of times God will forgive certain sins before he forgives it no more. We are called by Christ not to just repent of our sins, but to repent and sin no more. If a man's wife cheats on him, but then repents and begs his forgiveness only to cheat on him again, and again, and again, and again, and again repeating the cycle over and over and over again. How many times will he forgive her before he comes to the conclusion that yes she repents and for a short time is sorrowful for her sins and for a short time is faithful but then after a time turns back to the same sin, failing to sin no more. If God does have a fixed number of times he will forgive certain mortal sins it is likely linked with our repenting in vain, those who repent but fail to sin no more, those who fail to fight against the sin, those who just give in to sin every time they are tempted thinking to themselves I can just repent again later and everything will be cool.

I have a question.. I asked my priest this and he said that God will always forgive if we are sorry.. so I took this to mean that the "set number of times" refers to how repeated sin could harden the heart and lead to unrepentance. What do you think?

[Nihil Obstat]

I have a question.. I asked my priest this and he said that God will always forgive if we are sorry.. so I took this to mean that the "set number of times" refers to how repeated sin could harden the heart and lead to unrepentance. What do you think?

It also refers to the Catholic understanding of predestination, by which all good things, all graces, come from God. This includes the grace necessary for repentance. If a person falls away and does not return, or if a person dies without repenting, it means two things. First, that the person sinned through their own will; it was not caused by God. Second, that God could have given additional grace to call that person to repentance, but did not choose to do so. And that choice was made in perfect justice and perfect love.

All that is good comes from God. All that is evil comes from ourselves and from the Evil One.

[KnightofChrist]

that is still taking Our Lord's name in vain I think. "in vain" is without referring to God, like not in prayer or serious discussion about Him. It is a very serious sin because the Lord's Name is holy. We can do reparation for this if we hear others do it.

I have a question.. I asked my priest this and he said that God will always forgive if we are sorry.. so I took this to mean that the "set number of times" refers to how repeated sin could harden the heart and lead to unrepentance. What do you think?

I would agree on condition that God may grant us the time to repent, if he does and we are truly repentant and strive to sin no more, fighting against the temptation to sin God will forgive us each time. The trouble is however we know not the day nor hour of our death. We are not promised tomorrow, if we choose to sin we have no way of knowing if God will grant us the gift of life long enough for us to repent of our sins.

I believe this is a matter of most importance to St. Alphonsus de Liguori when he states "Say not then, O sinner: "As God has forgiven me other sins, so He will pardon me this one if I commit it." Say not this; for, if to the sin which has been forgiven you add another, you have reason to fear that this new sin shall be united to your former guilt, and that thus the number will be completed, and that you shall be abandoned."

It is folly to believe we can choose sin and just ask forgiveness later and everything will be ok.  It reminds me somewhat of the parable in the Scriptures where a rich man had saved up all his riches and made plans on what to do with those riches (none of it included giving it to God) only to be told by God "Thou fool, this night do they require thy soul of thee."

God may or may not give us a certain time to truly repent of our sins. For some as St. Alphonsus observes the amount of times can be few, Saul disobeyed God twice and with the second offense God abandoned Saul. But Saul's repentance was often in vain if memory serves Saul also repented or asked to be forgiven by David and God by extension various times only to quickly turn back to his attempts to kill David. There is also the sin that Onan committed, he refused to father a child by spilling his seed upon the ground. For that one sin God struck him down. In the New Testament Ananias and Sapphira lied to Saint Peter about selling a plot of land and both where struck down dead by God for the one lie.