Brainwashed

[HisChildForever]

The very idea of Hell is jarring, if you really think about it. I'm not sure even the worst sinner can grasp the concept of pain for all eternity, whether he has a firm understanding of mortal sin or not. We're so finite, our brain power is so limited, especially in comparison to the amesomeness of the Creator. What human being in his right mind would turn away from eternal happiness and love and choose eternal misery and torment? Even if he did choose it, does he really understand the gravity of his choice?

[superblue]

A child is presumed to have reached the age of reason at the completion of their seventh year.

http://www.livescience.com/7005-brains-young-adults-fully-mature.html

Parental Responsibility

Parental responsibility is a concept of having the rights, duties, powers, and responsibilities which a parent of a child has in relation to the child and his or her property. It was introduced by the Children's Act 1989 and contains a list of key roles (Fig. 1); the guiding principle being that of the child's best interests.^[2] One of these key roles is agreeing to a child's medical treatment, and therefore, the key to obtaining valid consent is to understand who has or does not have parental responsibility.

from a website with too many ads

 i figured the topic of consent is way more interesting, at least on a spiritual level, when looking at it legally, versus spiritually, it becomes interesting.

Legally we make laws to protect children,  even if we have a child murderer we have laws that prevent that child from being executed by law. 

though in the end it seems like we need a canon lawyer to answer some of this, and then it also seems like limbo was created for babies that were not baptized....

 

[Winchester]

Hell is for those who actually reject God. 

[Credo in Deum]

The very idea of Hell is jarring, if you really think about it. I'm not sure even the worst sinner can grasp the concept of pain for all eternity, whether he has a firm understanding of mortal sin or not. We're so finite, our brain power is so limited, especially in comparison to the amesomeness of the Creator. What human being in his right mind would turn away from eternal happiness and love and choose eternal misery and torment? Even if he did choose it, does he really understand the gravity of his choice?

While it seems unthinkable that someone who would understand the consequences of hell would still choose to sin mortally, it is not impossible.  After all the demons in hell were once angles in a state of grace.  They understood the consequences but still rejected God.  There are likewise humans that do this.  When God approaches we say "there is no room in the inn" and we reject God.  I always think of that response to the child Jesus, since it's not like room couldn't have been made for an infant.  It was that those in the inn were so selfish no room would be made.  No inconvenience to their desires, wills, and comforts would be tolerated.

Edited November 7, 2015 by Credo in Deum

[Nihil Obstat]

In fact it is far easier to reject God's grace than it is to persevere to the end.

Matthew 24
[11] And the king went in to see the guests: and he saw there a man who had not on a wedding garment. [12] And he saith to him: Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? But he was silent. [13] Then the king said to the waiters: Bind his hands and feet, and cast him into the exterior darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. [14] For many are called, but few are chosen.

Matthew 7
 [13] Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there are who go in thereat. [14] How narrow is the gate, and strait is the way that leadeth to life: and few there are that find it!

Matthew 19 (and Mark 10, Luke 18)
[23] Then Jesus said to his disciples: Amen, I say to you, that a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. [24] And again I say to you: It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of heaven. [25] And when they had heard this, the disciples wondered very much, saying: Who then can be saved? [26] And Jesus beholding, said to them: With men this is impossible: but with God all things are possible.

[blazeingstar]

Alot of these stories, are disgusting, assorted fiction.  They are meant to scare people.  There's another story floating around that there was a father who "welcomed" his daughter to hell at age 13 because she "chose" to continue the life of prositution that he sold her into.

I think that some of these "visions" are tricks of the devil trying to get people to despair.  

[Guest]

Bump

[Credo in Deum]

Alot of these stories, are disgusting, assorted fiction.  They are meant to scare people.  There's another story floating around that there was a father who "welcomed" his daughter to hell at age 13 because she "chose" to continue the life of prositution that he sold her into.

I think that some of these "visions" are tricks of the devil trying to get people to despair.  

I don't believe visions which have been approved by the Church and which come from her saints are tricks of the devil.  Such a view would not be approved by the Church about a vision she Herself has approved.

I think most of us need to ask ourselves if we have really been accepting of what the Church has taught about hell and the visions of her saints, or have we been going in an the opposite direction where the views we hold find no place in the Church' tradition? How many visions from the saints have been on the fewness of souls who are in hell?  Where did our own savior say "narrow is the path, and straight the way, and many are those who find it"? 

Most people have an unrealistic view of God's mercy, and most of the time it is a view the leads to presumption.  If we are despairing about what the saints said and what the Church approved, then maybe it is our outlook which needs correction and maybe the devil has worked his way into our lives in areas where we despair because we either don't won't to change or wrongly think change is impossible. 

Edited November 7, 2015 by Credo in Deum

[veritasluxmea]

I don't believe visions which have been approved by the Church and which come from her saints are tricks of the devil.  Such a view would not be approved by the Church about a vision she Herself has approved.

If you trace most, probably the majority of stories back to their source they aren't actually approved or come from a saint, or even a blessed or venerable. So it remains a possibility. I take such things with a gain of salt and look for the deeper meaning (hell is bad, don't sin). 

[Credo in Deum]

If you trace most, probably the majority of stories back to their source they aren't actually approved or come from a saint, or even a blessed or venerable. So it remains a possibility. I take such things with a gain of salt and look for the deeper meaning (hell is bad, don't sin). 

If the vision is not approved by the Church, then I don't even bother listening to it. 

[MarysLittleFlower]

I would agree on condition that God may grant us the time to repent, if he does and we are truly repentant and strive to sin no more, fighting against the temptation to sin God will forgive us each time. The trouble is however we know not the day nor hour of our death. We are not promised tomorrow, if we choose to sin we have no way of knowing if God will grant us the gift of life long enough for us to repent of our sins.

I believe this is a matter of most importance to St. Alphonsus de Liguori when he states "Say not then, O sinner: "As God has forgiven me other sins, so He will pardon me this one if I commit it." Say not this; for, if to the sin which has been forgiven you add another, you have reason to fear that this new sin shall be united to your former guilt, and that thus the number will be completed, and that you shall be abandoned."

It is folly to believe we can choose sin and just ask forgiveness later and everything will be ok.  It reminds me somewhat of the parable in the Scriptures where a rich man had saved up all his riches and made plans on what to do with those riches (none of it included giving it to God) only to be told by God "Thou fool, this night do they require thy soul of thee."

God may or may not give us a certain time to truly repent of our sins. For some as St. Alphonsus observes the amount of times can be few, Saul disobeyed God twice and with the second offense God abandoned Saul. But Saul's repentance was often in vain if memory serves Saul also repented or asked to be forgiven by David and God by extension various times only to quickly turn back to his attempts to kill David. There is also the sin that Onan committed, he refused to father a child by spilling his seed upon the ground. For that one sin God struck him down. In the New Testament Ananias and Sapphira lied to Saint Peter about selling a plot of land and both where struck down dead by God for the one lie. 

Thanks for the reply, I think what you describe sounds a lot like the sin of presumption... Of course, we should never sin presuming on repentance... Very dangerous and an insult to God's mercy 

It also refers to the Catholic understanding of predestination, by which all good things, all graces, come from God. This includes the grace necessary for repentance. If a person falls away and does not return, or if a person dies without repenting, it means two things. First, that the person sinned through their own will; it was not caused by God. Second, that God could have given additional grace to call that person to repentance, but did not choose to do so. And that choice was made in perfect justice and perfect love.

All that is good comes from God. All that is evil comes from ourselves and from the Evil One.

thanks for the reply, - I'm sure God is just and good in how He gives grace ..do you think a person might not be disposed to receive more grace if they dont? 

[Lilllabettt]

The very idea of Hell is jarring, if you really think about it. I'm not sure even the worst sinner can grasp the concept of pain for all eternity, whether he has a firm understanding of mortal sin or not. We're so finite, our brain power is so limited, especially in comparison to the amesomeness of the Creator. What human being in his right mind would turn away from eternal happiness and love and choose eternal misery and torment? Even if he did choose it, does he really understand the gravity of his choice?

sometimes, feeling bad feels good. 

that sounds nuts, but it's true for many people.

Having experienced that kind of thing myself, I can believe that there may be people who feel good, feeling bad, in Hell.  

Feeling bad, feeling butthurt etc.,- these things exert a magnetic pull - which has to be resisted by main force. It's terribly heavy work, and I can see a lot of people not wanting to do it. 

[Norseman82]

After all the demons in hell were once angles in a state of grace.  

They thought they were right but were really obtuse.

Edited November 8, 2015 by Norseman82

[Credo in Deum]

They thought they were right but were really obtuse.

Haha, darn iPhones.

[Ice_nine]

merged Josh's apology thread with this one cuz i felt lyk it