Romans 8:30

[Brother Adam]

Calling all Scholars.

In discussing Catholicism with a Baptist friend, he basically says because of Romans 8:28-30, it's pretty much impossible to refute OSAS. Does anyone know of a good Catholic exegesis of this passage. I'm having trouble finding something good on it. Thanks.

[Brother Adam]

Not good. I'm coming up empty in every direction I look.

[Justified Saint]

Romans 8:30 is discussing justification and predestination in a general, broad sense and not the predestination of individual Christians. There is of course a general plan of predestination under God for He is omniscient and that is what Romans 8:30 is talking about.


You might want to check into [i]Not by Faith Alone[/i] by Robert Sungenis or [i]Grace, Predestination, and the Salvific Will of God[/i] by Fr. William Most for extended discussions.

[Justified Saint]

Just checking my copy of Most's work and the first couple of pages actually have an exegesis of Romans 8:28-30, but I don't know if there is any further extensive discussion on just those verses in the book. I'd have to read over it again but Fr. Most and his sources make it pretty clear that there isn't much evidence suggesting that Romans 8:28-30 should be interpreted as an individual's salvation.

[Brother Adam]

11. Exegesis of Rom 8:28-31:1 The best exegetes of all schools within the Church, and also the best outside the Church, agree on many points of great importance in interpreting these verses.

First, all teach that St. Paul in these verses is speaking about all Christians, that is, all Christians are predestined in the Pauline sense. Hence they teach that St. Paul in these verses does not distinguish Christians into two classes, into the predestined and reprobate. The eminent Dominican exegete, Père Lagrange, notes that St. Augustine attempted to introduce that distinction into this passage, and comments:2 "That opinion, so full of consequences, isolated in ancient times, and rejected by modern authors (Cornely, Prat, Lipsius, Sanday-Headlam, Julicher, Zahn, Lietzmann), has no foundation in the text and is contrary to the whole context. St. Paul speaks to all Christians, and does not dream of distinguishing them into two classes: those who are called according to a design of predestination, and those who are called without being predestined. The distinction between those called and those chosen, such as it is given in the Gospel (Mt 20:16; 22:14), does not coincide with the terms used by Paul. In his mind, kletos, "one who is called," refers to one who has answered the call; he has been called effectively (Cornely, Prat). All Christians are called in that sense. He would not reassure them by saying: certain ones among you are predestined." Similarly, in his commentary on verse 30:3 "We have already noted that here Paul does not make two classes among Christians: those who are predestined, and those who are not. His purpose is to encourage all the faithful. On the part of God, the call to faith and justification are an assured pledge of salvation; it is not God who will fail the faithful. The chain of divine acts conducts them to salvation, because Paul supposes that a Christian will not divest himself of his goodness. . . . Or rather; Paul does not think of the particular destiny of each Christian in the designs of God, but of the designs of God for Christianity; those who are in his mind are the faithful as a group, those who have answered his call. . . . As far as individuals are concerned, it is for them to live according to the Spirit, etc., for Paul does not hide the fact that they can fall back under the regime of the flesh."

Precisely the same explanation is found in the excellent commentary of J. Huby, SJ.4

Therefore, since St. Paul is not here speaking of the place of the individual in the plans of God, nor of infallible predestination to Heaven, it does not make much difference for our question whether we say that St. Paul is speaking of predestination before or after prevision of merits. As Lagrange notes so well, if St. Paul really were speaking of the predestination of the individual to Heaven and said that some Christians, without any consideration of their dispositions whatsoever, were not predestined, he would not strengthen the hope of all by saying to them: Some of you are predestined. But, as Lagrange also says, St. Paul's purpose in this passage is to strengthen the hope of all the faithful. Huby, then, is quite right in saying:5 ". . . in an exhortation in which the Apostle wishes to arouse a firm hope in the hearts of all Christians, would he really encourage them if he said: 'All have confidence, because some among you are predestined?' As someone has said: 'It is impossible to argue with less logic.'"

As to men who do not enter into the Church in the full sense, St. Paul simply does not speak of them in the verses we are considering. Elsewhere in the same Epistle, especially in 2:12-16, he makes clear that at least some of them are actually saved.

[IcePrincessKRS]

[quote][28-30] These verses outline the Christian vocation as it was designed by God: to be conformed to the image of his Son, who is to be the firstborn among many brothers (Romans 8:29). God's redemptive action on behalf of the believers has been in process before the beginning of the world. Those whom God chooses are those he foreknew (Romans 8:29) or elected. Those who are called (Romans 8:30) are predestined or predetermined. These expressions do not mean that God is arbitrary. Rather, Paul uses them to emphasize the thought and care that God has taken for the Christian's salvation.

Image: while man and woman were originally created in God's image (Genesis 1:26-27), it is through baptism into Christ, the image of God (2 Cor 4:4; Col 1:15), that we are renewed according to the image of the Creator (Col 3:10).

[url="http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/romans/romans8.htm"]http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/romans/romans8.htm[/url][/quote]

[quote] 
Romans 8:28-30 is one of the most important of Calvinist proof texts. They conclude that God predestinates or elects us unconditionally unto justification, salvation, etc. But they often neglect one important facet of this passage. In verse 28, Paul clearly states that God's election or predestination is based upon God's foreknowledge. This is consistent with Paul's words in 1 Peter 1.

[url="http://www.geocities.com/biblestudying/calvinepistles1.html"]http://www.geocities.com/biblestudying/calvinepistles1.html[/url][/quote]


[quote] In contrast to this impotence, communion with Christ imparts freedom from sin and from death (viii, 1-11), establishes the Divine kinship, and raises mankind above all earthly trouble to the certain hope of an indescribable happiness (viii, 12-39). [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13156a.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13156a.htm[/url][/quote]


[quote]The purpose he here mentions, however, that he might not ascribe everything to the calling; since in this way both Greeks and Jews would be sure to cavil.

For if the calling alone were sufficient, how came it that all were not saved?

Hence he says, that it is not the calling alone, but the purpose of those called too, that works the salvation. For the calling was not forced upon them, nor compulsory. All then were called, but all did not obey the call.
[url="http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/210215.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/210215.htm[/url][/quote]


[quote] The unitive way is the way of those who are in the state of the perfect, that is, those who have their minds so drawn away from all temporal things that they enjoy great peace, who are neither agitated by various desires nor moved by any great extent by passion, and who have their minds chiefly fixed on God and their attention turned, either always or very frequently, to Him. ..................... They are enlightened in the mysteries of the supernatural life, and they have experience of that truth proclaimed by St. Paul when he said: "We know that to them that love God, all things work together unto good, to such as, according to His purpose, are called to be saints." (Romans 8:28).
[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14254a.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14254a.htm[/url][/quote]

[Justified Saint]

Bro Adam, did they have that online?

Edited June 17, 2004 by Justified Saint

[Brother Adam]

[url="https://www.catholicculture.org/docs/most/getwork.cfm?worknum=214"]https://www.catholicculture.org/docs/most/g...cfm?worknum=214[/url]

[Justified Saint]

Good stuff

[Cure of Ars]

Once Saved Always Saved

[color=blue]We know that all things work for good for those who love God, who are called according to his purpose. For those he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, so that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined he also called; and those he called he also justified; and those he justified he also glorified. [/color] (Rom 8:28-30)


This passage is looking from the reference point of God not man. God is the alpha and omega. Because of this he knows who will be saved. This does not mean that we share this same reference point. In fact even Paul did not know with infallible assurance that he was going to be saved during his ministry. (1 Cor 9:27 and Phil 2:12)

[Born Again Catholic]

Hi Bro Adam

When virtually evry book of the NT teaches against OSAS with strong statements is seems incredible that a person can try to hang their hat on one verse and conveniently dismiss all the rest that teach against it.

James Akin discusses those verses in the following link which you may find helpful.

[url="http://www.cin.org/users/james/files/loss.htm"]http://www.cin.org/users/james/files/loss.htm[/url]

[Mateo el Feo]

Hi Adam,

Just a few random comments...

The website CatholicExchange.com has some Bible Studies (Written by Scott Hahn and a few others) that give some good commentary (the study materials can be ordered through their website). This past year, our Bible study went through Romans, using their study materials.

Also, A Navarre Bible of Romans would probably have some good info.

The relevant Catechism paragraphs (related to Rom 8:28-30) are 381, 600, and 1037, but I think they have more to do with predestination than OSAS.

Also, the text at Catholic.com ([url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Assurance_of_Salvation.asp"]Assurance of Salvation[/url]) is pretty relevant. Here's their concluding remarks:

[quote]"Are you saved?" asks the Fundamentalist. The Catholic should reply: "As the Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13)." [/quote]

Mostly, the quote is useful because it has a bunch of Biblical references like Phil 2:12.

During our Bible study (the week we studied Romans 8), the point that was made was that OSAS is a sin of presumption, and it makes the virtue of Hope irrelevant. In other words, how does one "Hope" for something they already are convinced they've got (a ticket to eternal Salvation)?

The Bible warns us all over the place that we must remain faithful until our last breath, and cites examples of "saved" people who were later punished by God for falling away. For example:

[b]Jude 1:5 "I wish to remind you, although you know all things, that (the) Lord who once saved a people from the land of Egypt later destroyed those who did not believe."[/b]

and another passage:

[b]2 Peter 2:20, 21 "For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of (our) Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them. "[/b]

It seems Our Lord and the Apostles (in the NT) really emphasize the ideas of (1) persevering until the end and (2) warning us of the consequences for turning away from God and not doing His will. If we had assurance of Salvation in the way that OSAS seems to suggest, why would the NT give us so many warnings?

God bless!

[Jake Huether]

The way I look at it...

God knows who's "predestined". He knows who's saved (or in other words, who will be saved). So in this sense, sure once we're "saved" we're always saved. In other words. If it will be that in the end we go to heaven, then that is how it will be. But of course, no one except God knows who will end up there. So, in the free will human sense of OSAS, there is no such thing. We don't know if we're saved. There is no way of knowing it! Even Paul was in "fear and trembling" while he worked out his salvation.

Paul in Romans is speaking of the reality of God's knowledge. He is saying that those who God knows already that are going to heaven, they are predestined, i.e saved. But Paul never says that they know it. According to them, they might think of themselves as misserable sinners!

The thing is, God knows the end. So, in His eternal realm, those who are saved, are saved. But in our realm, we are free to choose or reject God any step of the way during our lives on earth. We, in our realm, are NOT predestined, because we can freely choose to change our destiny (if there is such a thing to begin with). But God knows all our moves. That is what Paul is refering to. But God's knowledge doesn't change our free will.


I don't know. Maybe I'm missing the mark. But I don't think that this is a statement of the concept of OSAS.

[Jake Huether]

[quote name='Cure of Ars' date='Jun 16 2004, 10:04 PM'] Once Saved Always Saved

[color=blue]We know that all things work for good for those who love God, who are called according to his purpose. For those he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, so that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined he also called; and those he called he also justified; and those he justified he also glorified. [/color] (Rom 8:28-30)


This passage is looking from the reference point of God not man. God is the alpha and omega. Because of this he knows who will be saved. This does not mean that we share this same reference point. In fact even Paul did not know with infallible assurance that he was going to be saved during his ministry. (1 Cor 9:27 and Phil 2:12) [/quote]
Ooops... Haha.

You said what I wanted to say. But much better, and with less words.

Um... Ditto to Cure.

God bless.

[cmotherofpirl]

If you are going to study this verse, you need to read verse 28-39 as a section.

God works always toward our good, even if it doesn't seem that way. He is outside of time so he already knows what will happen. It doesn't mean he decided ahead of time who wins and loses, but as the teacher he knows the answers as to who will pass the test at the end. He has offered His own Son as a pledge that we can be redeemed.
All we have to do is stay the course, "for who can seperate us from the love of God" but ourselves?