Broken Together

[CatherineM]

I had a long discussion with my SD yesterday, well she kind of read me the riot act as only an older cranky nun can, and she told me that I couldn't quit Phatmass. She ordered me to stay and try to make it better. She told me that if I don't like the conversations that are going on, that I was to start topics myself, which is something I rarely do. 

So my first topic is the idea of being broken together. I was listening to Casting Crowns, and these lyrics spoke to me, "Maybe you and I were never meant to be complete. Could we just be broken together. If you bring your shattered dreams and I'll bring mine. Could healing still be spoken and save us. The only way we'll last forever is broken together." I'm often asked to do marriage counselling. Strange really since I've only been married ten years. Of course priests do marriage counselling all the time too, and few of them have actual marriage experience. Having done divorces and divorce mediation for years, I certainly learned what doesn't work long before I met my husband. 

The talk of allowing the remarried to take part in communion is a hot topic right now. I do not want this to turn into a debate. OR ELSE, I will be forced to kick people out of my thread. My discussion is to be limited to the scope of dealing with a couple who have been married for 10 years with three kids. Both had been married briefly as young adults. As a member of the pastoral ministry team, it's your job to work with them. First of course is to help them apply for annulments. Let's say that didn't work for one of them. They want to be active members of a parish as a family. Do you suggest they become Episcopalians, or just quit going to church all together, or continue to attend services without receiving, or work out a pastoral solution that allows them to receive. 

My focus is on what would Jesus do?  What would St. Paul or Peter do?  What path could you suggest that would be the best for their spiritual life individually and as a family? What does Pope Francis' call to mercy require?  This isn't an intellectual discussion but based on real people with real lives and issues. 
 

[dUSt]

I would try to talk to the person who is having the issue and try to better explain things so they can see the wisdom in the Church's teachings.

[Era Might]

I think that one has to get away from the idea that there is a "solution" to every problem of discipleship. Following Jesus is a serious, existential decision, and eventually we have to face the implications of that decision in our individual lives. The other day I was reading one of the demoniac stories in the Gospel of Mark, where the father wants his son to be exorcised, but the father lacks faith, despite his own desire to believe:

And Jesus said to him, "If you can! All things are possible to him who believes." Immediately the father of the child cried out and said, "I believe; help my unbelief!" And when Jesus saw that a crowd came running together, he rebuked the unclean spirit, saying to it, "You dumb and deaf spirit, I command you, come out of him, and never enter him again." And after crying out and convulsing him terribly, it came out, and the boy was like a corpse; so that most of them said, "He is dead." But Jesus took him by the hand and lifted him up, and he arose. And when he had entered the house, his disciples asked him privately, "Why could we not cast it out?" And he said to them, "This kind cannot be driven out by anything but prayer."

Shortly after that the Apostles are rebuked for forbidding a man who was casting out demons apart from them:

John said to him, "Teacher, we saw a man casting out demons in your name, and we forbade him, because he was not following us." But Jesus said, "Do not forbid him; for no one who does a mighty work in my name will be able soon after to speak evil of me. For he that is not against us is for us.  For truly, I say to you, whoever gives you a cup of water to drink because you bear the name of Christ, will by no means lose his reward. "Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him if a great millstone were hung round his neck and he were thrown into the sea.

I think these two stories are connected. The Apostles don't know why they can't drive out the demon, and Jesus tells them that it's because the father lacks faith, he wants to believe, but he can't. And all the Apostles can do is fast and pray, they can't solve the man's problem of faith otherwise. But then, when they see someone else casting out demons apart from them, Jesus basically says to them, look, this isn't about YOU. This person is doing good in my name, so don't scandalize them just because they are doing it apart from you, don't kill their good intention but refer everything to my goodness.

That's the way I see the situation you describe. This isn't a problem that a "pastoral ministry team" can solve for them (except insofar as it's an institutional matter like helping them through the annulment process, etc.). Apart from that, it's a question of discipleship, which only they can answer, in conversation with the church. I think there is something to be said for those who stay outside the church honestly, staying on the margins, because they are not ready to believe, or not ready to make that act of discipleship, but they are not abandoning it either. I think the same thing Jesus said to the Apostles applies here, don't drive people out just because they aren't perfectly inside your little personal club of Apostles (i.e., the institutional church). Sometimes you have to let people live in a grey area, and encourage them with a witness of discipleship, rather than drive them away because they need help with their unbelief.

[CatherineM]

See, that's the thing is, they believe the Church's teachings, but made stupid mistakes when they were young. Some mistakes you can't fix. This is my point. Real live human being in front of you, broken and not perfect, how do you handle their situation. 

[Gabriela]

I think that one has to get away from the idea that there is a "solution" to every problem of discipleship. Following Jesus is a serious, existential decision, and eventually we have to face the implications of that decision in our individual lives.

This is priceless wisdom.

My answer (much less valuable): Explain to them that there are countless other ways they can be active members of the Church without receiving the Eucharist. Explain that theirs is a hard cross to bear, but they can take joy in seeing their children receive, and in knowing that they will be rewarded for bearing this cross. Invite them to do absolutely everything that they can be involved in. Always include them. Treat them no different than any other family. Love the croutons out of them. Help them bear their burden.

[CatherineM]

74 views but only 4 replies. My point with this one is that our priests must daily deal with broken people, often with no good answers. Real pastoral ministry is completely different that sitting up high reading texts about how things should be, expecting perfection. We should all invite our priests out to lunch, or better yet, out for a beer. 

[MIKolbe]

It is a good question...I need to read it again and again and think about it more before I reply... Then I have to see if my reply is any good, given I'm not that smart.  I may or may not post it.  This could explain the 74 views and 4 replies.

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

74 views but only 4 replies. My point with this one is that our priests must daily deal with broken people, often with no good answers. Real pastoral ministry is completely different that sitting up high reading texts about how things should be, expecting perfection. We should all invite our priests out to lunch, or better yet, out for a beer. 

I couldn't do what you do--or what a priest does. It is one thing to post on Phatmass, "The Church teaches X and we must offer up our suffering." It is quite another to face the realities of this, particularly with good people--people you have come to care about. 

There are some mistakes we make that we just can't fix. Although I have tried, I still can't forgive myself for being so clueless as to marry my ex-husband. In retrospect, there were SO many "red flags." That's the problem with "red flags"--a lot of them, especially in my case, had multiple interpretations, and none of them were overt enough (at the time) to make me seriously reconsider getting married. Plus, I loved my ex-husband with all my heart. No one told me that just because you love someone with all your heart, that doesn't mean they are the right person for you to marry. 

I didn't respond to your post in this thread because I can't in good conscience give a Roman Catholic response and this is a Roman Catholic phorum. So, I simply stayed quiet and didn't respond.

I'm VERY glad your SD told you to stay. The Phatmassers who have left (or who rarely post) that I miss most are the older posters who have all the "battle scars" and know firsthand that while it is easy to post what someone SHOULD do, it is much harder to actually apply teachings to specific situations. Jesus broke the rules of the Pharisees (and of Judaism itself) in order to show love and compassion to prostitutes and tax collectors, and as a result, was constantly and loudly criticized by TPTB. But he was Jesus, and we are not. We don't have Jesus' wisdom or his emotional strength. 

I have lost count of how many times I have been impressed and inspired by your wisdom and strength, especially in the face of your daily physical suffering (and that of your husband and children). You are one of my heroes. I apologize for taking so long to tell you this.

[Credo in Deum]

See, that's the thing is, they believe the Church's teachings, but made stupid mistakes when they were young. Some mistakes you can't fix. This is my point. Real live human being in front of you, broken and not perfect, how do you handle their situation. 

It's going to be very difficult to handle their situation.  It's going to be a valley of tears, but the Cross is where we go to when faced with trials which look hopeless.  Yes, it is regrettable that they made these mistakes in the past, but it shows that sin has real consequences. It's going to require hard work to get out of this, and resignation on their end to do all that needs to be done regardless of the outcome.  True mercy is supporting them through the hard times and helping them live out this resolution.

When my brother married his wife in civil court, and then they both reverted back to the faith, they found out that their civil marriage was not valid and that my sister in-law was previously married before being with my brother.  Add on top of this that they already had a kid together and another one on the way.   My brother went to our priest and asked him what needed to be done. The priest advised him of the sacramental requirements for marriage, the annulment process, and etc.  He told my brother that while waiting for the annulment case they would need to refrain from receiving communion he told my brother that he would need to move out so he is not committing adultry or cohabitation, or any other serious sins.

After hearing this news we as a family chipped in to help them. We assisted with baby sitting, money, food, and lodging for my sister in-law and my brother to sleep in separate places.  We were there to support them through the tough hard work that laid ahead and we told them we would always support them like this even if the decision on my sisters annulment was not approved. We believed this was true mercy.  

Long story short my sister in-law's previous marriage was annulled and my brother and his wife were validly married.   The reality of what would have happened had the decision been different does not escape my brother or us, but both my brother and his wife agree that regardless what the outcome could have been the solution would always need to be the same; God first in all things and trust that God will take care of them.

 

[blazeingstar]

74 views but only 4 replies.

Remember that Google bot, bing bot, yahoo bot and a probably around 50 of these views were not actually humans.

 

As far as the dilemma. 

Brother and sister thing, and eventually appeal the annulment to a higher power.  In cases where it's often clear to laity that it was the young stupid, it sometimes takes higher ups a bit more to decide.  Then again with the abysmal marriage prep that I had that was supposed to be superior...I can't even fathom how 1/10 of couples today don't enter marriage with some sort of grave impediment, weither it be birth control, co-habitation so long that marriage is "next" but not much else thought of, wrong ideas about infidelity, etc, etc.or heck, even lack of form.  There was a couple in our pre-cana group that was getting married on a beach and the priest at pre-cana even wished them good weather!  So yeah...im surprized more marriages don't end in annulments.

[CatherineM]

I agree that I'm surprised that any marriages make it. I often say that I feel divorce is a symptom that something wasn't right in the first place. Good sacramental marriages rarely end in divorce. 

[Slappo]

This is priceless wisdom.

My answer (much less valuable): Explain to them that there are countless other ways they can be active members of the Church without receiving the Eucharist. Explain that theirs is a hard cross to bear, but they can take joy in seeing their children receive, and in knowing that they will be rewarded for bearing this cross. Invite them to do absolutely everything that they can be involved in. Always include them. Treat them no different than any other family. Love the croutons out of them. Help them bear their burden.

I think the problem with this is that if we're advising them to continue living as they are (not married in the eyes of the church) and living in a state where they cannot receive holy communion (due to the public appearance of mortal sin whether), then we're advising them to continue to live a lifestyle that the Church considers sinful.

 

Catherine - I really have a very difficult time with this scenario because of how challenging it is. The black and white of the matter is that they are not married and are living in sin; that's the book knowledge side. The real life knowledge is that they are two individuals that live as a working loving family, maybe even a role model family aside from the divorce history, that made mistakes when they were younger that continue to affect them. I can't condone their marriage or advise them in any manner that would let them continue to live as they are, due to the black and white book knowledge side of things, yet at the same time I can't really suggest that they split up either. I think I'd have to go with the route of 1. continuing to appeal for an annulment while 2. living as brother and sister in abstinence after going to confession. It would likely be the most or one of the most difficult things the couple would ever have to do in their lives, and would not be widely accepted, but it's the only real "solution" that I can see or think of.

 

I suggested the same thing to my mother and her lesbian partner - that they live a life of abstinence as two sisters rather than "lovers" while continuing to care for the needs and well being of the other.

Edited October 28, 2015 by Slappo

[Era Might]

74 views but only 4 replies. My point with this one is that our priests must daily deal with broken people, often with no good answers. Real pastoral ministry is completely different that sitting up high reading texts about how things should be, expecting perfection. We should all invite our priests out to lunch, or better yet, out for a beer. 

Everyone is broken, including people who sit up high reading texts. The problem with the pharisees wasn't that they read texts, but that they didn't want to carry the burdens they imposed on everyone else. You said these people believe in the church, so it seems that the "solution" is clear...tell them their options as far as the church is concerned (doesn't the church allow brother-sister arrangements in certain situations)? Other than that, all you can do is be with them in their walk. Maybe you can clarify what you mean by "pastoral ministry"? You make a good point that priests have to deal with stuff they don't have the answers to...priests were not meant to be the answer to everything, they are ministers of the word and the worship of the church, primarily. Literally everyone you meet today is broken, including yourself...we can barely solve our own problems, let alone everyone else's. "Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ" seems to sum up what we can do...we can't eliminate the burden, but we can carry it with them (of course, that first requires us to identify our necessary burdens, which we may not want to carry in the first place).

[dUSt]

This thread is what I want phatmass to continue to be. 

[CatherineM]

By pastoral ministry I mean priests and deacons, pastoral associates, RCIA directors, DRE's, etc. These things come up all the time in regular parish work. As an example, we had a man in RCIA waiting out an annulment. Happens routinely. He had to spend two years in RCIA, but didn't mind.  His two kids got baptized after the first year. Got his annulment, but then a hitch. He was now free to marry in the church but his wife wasn't. She was a fallen away Catholic. Had she been a Methodist, no problem. We actually had to talk her into confession and coming to mass long enough for him to get married. 

My husband and I had to marry civilly at first because of immigration. We were both free to marry in the church, had fulfilled all our pre-Cana requirements, but his family got our wedding cancelled 4 days before it was scheduled by calling our priest and telling him that Austin was off his meds and beating me. He takes an injection every two weeks so the doctor could attest he was on his meds, but our priest had to do due dilligence. Then his mom had immigration start an investigation on me as a terrorist.

We had to marry, or I'd have been deported. We went six months without communion and I couldn't sing in the choir. We opted for that on our own just to avoid the appearance of impropriety, but lots of people wouldn't have. They'd have said if I can't sing or participate, I'll go elsewhere. We want people to stay. It's a really hard line to walk. I know one priest who told me he handled the situation in the confessional. The couple went every Sunday before mass. I asked if that meant he was absolving them of a sin they had no intention of stopping. He said they tried, often failed, but a few years later he went in heart medicine and the issue got resolved that way.