Questions about homosexuality before returning to the Faith

[Benedictus]

I would say to simply start attending Mass again somewhere near you where you feel comfortable and able to reconnect with God. Do you have a priest or SD you can talk to? If not, then I would suggest that be up high on the priority list. Consider maybe making some friends with Catholics your own age through local groups, maybe a social action group or prayer ministry (SVP etc). Having a bunch of good hearted people doing stuff because of their faith to help people on the ground can really help put certain issues into a full perpsective. There's plenty of kind hearted, polite and faithful Catholics, so don't be disheartened.

I would say to also take online haters with a pinch of salt, the same with real life ones, and simply offer prayers for them if you haven't the time or position to challenge them. Debates, or certain issues, can bring out the worst in some generally OK people. But there are, of course, people who act badly, are bigots, ignorant etc in all sorts of places. Consider the merits of the points (if any) and stuff but don't let them phase you or put you down emotionally. Stick with good counsel of learned people in the church on whatever topic you're considering and then move from there. It's more important that you focus on God and the people in your life that move you towards growth and love. The rest may come in and out of focous as life goes on.

At various points, at least in my experience, there will be things we need to personally challenge, wrestle with, get angry and frustated over, let go or leave alone or 'on hold' until another time. There is a massive element of sacrifice too -  be it suffering the whims of others who persecute you or being obedient to God (or another person, family, community) in your life. But needs balance, perspective and wise discernment too.

Context and knowing what battles to pick are important too -  some places, people and times simply aren't worth the wounds and scars.  Many things, including people, can be a stumble block if they block the path or relationship developing with God, usually because an individual gives them more importance or focus than they need or deserve. The path can be lighter to walk when you stop carrying the baggage of others on your walk with God

[Norseman82]

 

How would you, as Catholics, treat homosexual people among your coworkers, social circles and family members?

 

As far as coworkers are concerned:  in the professional world, one has to basically learn that certain matters should not be discussed in the work environment unless you know for certain the person shares your views, otherwise you could be collecting unemployment. 

Among family, I have a cousin's daughter who is in a same-sex "partnership".  I talk to her, but with her partner I do nothing more than give basic courtesy (such as saying "excuse me" when I need to pass) because I do not want to give any signal of approval to their relationship.  However, if they do adopt a child, that would cause a dilemna, partially because I see it as an injustice against straight married couples who are turned down in the adoption process.  And it would be an even bigger dilemna if they ask me to be a godparent. 

Among friends, the circles I generally hang around in generally do not have people with SSA.  One exception is when a former neighbor whom I used to go to hockey games with "came out" to me via text about attraction to other men.  I basically apologized if my friendship gave him the wrong idea. I still keep in some contact with him (include him in general emails to neighbors), but I still struggle with the "how can I be a friend without giving the wrong idea" question. 

[Ice_nine]

norseman, your post has made me lost my ability to even.

1) Treating the person like she doesn't exist is not showing your disapproval of the relationship. I mean, what?

2) Not every gay man wants to bed you. You can be his friend without giving him the wrong idea by . . . being his friend? Or maybe gay people shouldn't have friends because they might get the wrong idea. Those gays, always salivating over people.

[Norseman82]

norseman, your post has made me lost my ability to even.

1) Treating the person like she doesn't exist is not showing your disapproval of the relationship. I mean, what?

2) Not every gay man wants to bed you. You can be his friend without giving him the wrong idea by . . . being his friend? Or maybe gay people shouldn't have friends because they might get the wrong idea. Those gays, always salivating over people.

You misunderstood my point.  I don't want someone to mistakenly think I'm interested in him.  I don't want to be an occasion of sin or temptation for another person, especially since these days males are more open about showing affection to each other with "bro hugs" and such.  "Being a friend" means one has to tread a bit more carefully in such situations. 

As far as the first situation is concerned, how would YOU express disapproval in such a situation?  Please give concrete examples.  These two are both Catholic school teachers (think of the example Lilllabett provided which I'm pasting below).  Would you suggest I call the archdiocese to report them like one friend of mine said I should do (but which I have not done)? 

 

gay people who claim to be catholic, don't believe, and go to church on sunday proclaiming that the gay sex they had last night is not a sin, and all people in the parish struggling for chastity are doing it in vain <---- i do not get that person. lets not be friends. lets have cordial conversation before I say I have to go to the bathroom and I run away.

 

gay people who claim to be catholic, don't believe, and go to church on sunday proclaiming that the gay sex they had last night is not a sin, and all people in the parish struggling for chastity are doing it in vain <---- i do not get that person. lets not be friends. lets have cordial conversation before I say I have to go to the bathroom and I run away.

 

 

Edited September 27, 2015 by Norseman82

[Ice_nine]

 

You misunderstood my point.  I don't want someone to mistakenly think I'm interested in him.  I don't want to be an occasion of sin or temptation for another person, especially since these days males are more open about showing affection to each other with "bro hugs" and such. 

This is categorically false. Males showing affection to each other has dramatically decreased since the advent of homosexuality. Even if what you said is true, should your gay friend have no male friends because they would all be "near occasions of sin"? Ridiculous. Leave them to fend for themselves I guess.

And nobody thinks you're interested in him. I don't think I misinterpreted you.

And how would I show my disapproval? I would tell them if they asked me my opinion. Why do people think "showing their disapproval" is so important? Have you considered that nobody is looking for your approval, tacit or otherwise? And have you also considered that your disapproval might mean something if you didn't treat people like they were invisible?

Edited September 27, 2015 by Ice_nine

[Norseman82]

This is categorically false. Males showing affection to each other has dramatically decreased since the advent of homosexuality. Even if what you said is true, should your gay friend have no male friends because they would all be "near occasions of sin"? Ridiculous. Leave them to fend for themselves I guess.

And nobody thinks you're interested in him. I don't think I misinterpreted you.

Please do not make judgments about situations that you know nothing about.   I have witnessed an increase in male affection over the years.  As someone who grew up in the 70s and 80s, let me assure you that if someone attempted back then some of the physical affection that is now commonly accepted, they would at the best be looked at funny or at worst be given a certain type of sandwich.  And if you actually read my post you would have seen my comment about treading carefully in situations and the fact that how to maintain such a friendship was something I struggled with - nothing about letting him fend for himself. 

 

And how would I show my disapproval? I would tell them if they asked me my opinion. Why do people think "showing their disapproval" is so important? Have you considered that nobody is looking for your approval, tacit or otherwise? And have you also considered that your disapproval might mean something if you didn't treat people like they were invisible?

That is a weak response on your part.  As my mother would say if my grades slipped, "You're sluffing off!".  According to the Catechism, we share in the sin of others if we fail to hinder it.  Admonishing the sinner is a spiritual work of mercy.THAT is why showing disapproval is so important. 

[Gabriela]

have you also considered that your disapproval might mean something if you didn't treat people like they were invisible?

This is a really good point. I once knew a pastor that I really didn't care for, but he said something that has always stuck with me: "If you want a person to change, you have to befriend them, come alongside them, and walk the road they're on with them." It's true. It's the hard, long-term, labor-intensive way of bringing Christ to people and people to Christ. But without a relationship, we are not likely to gain the respect that's needed for people to listen to our point of view—to Christ's "point of view". We'll remain "just another judgmental Catholic".

[Peace]

This is categorically false. Males showing affection to each other has dramatically decreased since the advent of homosexuality.

I'm gonna have to agree with the clueless one concernnig this aspect of the debate. 

I don't think you are gonna see too many dudes taking photos like this today:

http://www.vintag.es/2012/08/vintage-photos-of-male-affection.html

Try to put your arm around your homey or hold hands with a dude in the year 2015 . . . it ain't happening. I think the reason is because there is a fear that others would mistake you for being gay . . .

[Not The Philosopher]

I think it's true that the more sexualized the culture is, the more normal affection begins to be seen as being erotic. India is not known for its liberal views towards sex, to put it mildly, but it isn't uncommon to see two men holding each others' hands. But in North America I doubt you'll find many straight guys willing to do so, because that's something gay guys do, etc. Why are there so many "durr hurr Frodo and Sam are gay," "Hamlet and Horatio are gay" jokes these days about famous literary male friendships? Bromance and whatnot is just a psychological workaround people have come up with in order to be able to show what is, in fact, completely normal affection without being seen as gay.

[Oremus Pro Invicem]

I'm gonna have to agree with the clueless one concernnig this aspect of the debate. 

I don't think you are gonna see too many dudes taking photos like this today:

http://www.vintag.es/2012/08/vintage-photos-of-male-affection.html

Try to put your arm around your homey or hold hands with a dude in the year 2015 . . . it ain't happening. I think the reason is because there is a fear that others would mistake you for being gay . . .

Context is important when it comes to these pictures.  Most look like they were taken at celebrations, work places, and institutions where there was a segregation of the sexes and where a brotherhood is stressed and necessary.  I've seen pictures like this between my brother and his military buddies.  

[Oremus Pro Invicem]

Sorry for the double post:

I know that the Catechism condemns homosexual acts, but it also says that homosexual persons should be accepted with respect and not unjustly discriminated against. So, my question is, is it acceptable in Catholicism to have attitudes and engage in behaviours similar to what I've described above and what my experience of Catholicism has been, or are these people not acting in a way that is consistent with the Faith?

How would you, as Catholics, treat homosexual people among your coworkers, social circles and family members?

 

I try not to pay attention to other people's sexuality. When among coworkers I look at their job performance and work ethic. Among social circles and family I look for those who treat others with respect even during disagreements and who practice forgiveness after being wronged or who seek forgiveness when they have wronged someone.  When reading the lives of the saints I noticed that they never saw themselves as being above what they were; sinners.  They understood that without God's grace they too would and could commit every bad act under the sun because of their fallen nature.  Understanding and praying for the grace to accept this in my own life has given me lots of peace and allowed me to see the best in others while always striving to better myself. 

[Ice_nine]

Please do not make judgments about situations that you know nothing about.   I have witnessed an increase in male affection over the years.  As someone who grew up in the 70s and 80s, let me assure you that if someone attempted back then some of the physical affection that is now commonly accepted, they would at the best be looked at funny or at worst be given a certain type of sandwich.  And if you actually read my post you would have seen my comment about treading carefully in situations and the fact that how to maintain such a friendship was something I struggled with - nothing about letting him fend for himself. 

 

 

You shouldn't say that I "know nothing about it" and then proceed to trump me by sharing your anecdotal, singular perspective on the matter. And you said "since the 70's" so that changes things a bit. But still it's irrelevant. I disagree with your approach regardless.

That is a weak response on your part.  As my mother would say if my grades slipped, "You're sluffing off!".  According to the Catechism, we share in the sin of others if we fail to hinder it.  Admonishing the sinner is a spiritual work of mercy.THAT is why showing disapproval is so important. 

Cool story bro dude. I'm guessing you've failed to hinder your cousin's daughter's gay relationship about as much as I have. 

[penguin31]

 As someone who grew up in the 70s and 80s, let me assure you that if someone attempted back then some of the physical affection that is now commonly accepted, they would at the best be looked at funny or at worst be given a certain type of sandwich. 

And at various other points in the past, barbers were dentists, bathing more than once a week was considered scandalous, and most of the population was illiterate.  Just because actions, behaviors, or beliefs were held in the past doesn't make them meritorious or worthwhile. 

[Norseman82]

And have you also considered that your disapproval might mean something if you didn't treat people like they were invisible?

And did you ever consider that my disapproval (expressed by not attending the committment ceremony and my writing a response on the invitation to not go through with it because it was putting her soul in danger) triggered her to treat me as invisible in the first place?  Or should I have attended the ceremony and sinned by giving public approval to their situation?

And at various other points in the past, barbers were dentists, bathing more than once a week was considered scandalous, and most of the population was illiterate.  Just because actions, behaviors, or beliefs were held in the past doesn't make them meritorious or worthwhile. 

You missed the point.  I was trying to show how times have changed over the years.

[CrossCuT]

there's a difference between sinning and advocating that there is no such thing as sin. Of course we must welcome all sinners including people in irregular relationships of all kinds (although not so sure she should have been cantoring. But whatever.

However it's beyond rude and pretty bigoted to join a community and then start telling them that their thousands-of-years old heritage of sexual ethics is wrong. If she went around saying "pre marital sex is great, hurray for having babies out of wedlock" she would have got the side-eye too. I mean seriously who does that? I'd love for her to get actual diversity in her life and attend a mosque or shul, march in there and start telling them how to run things. Smh. Hopefully she is educated enough to not do that, but for some reason with Christianity people feel entitled to act like they were raised in a barn. 

Maybe the way I described the situation lead you to assume she preached satan's tunes unrelentingly to a flock of shiver sheep but that is not the case. She exists in the community and reacts. She doesnt hide what she thinks but she doesnt go around pushing it in the faces of those around her. She is accepting of the people who are not accepting of her.