Questions about homosexuality before returning to the Faith

[CatherineM]

You'll find jerks in every church. That happens when humans are involved. 

[Peace]

Hi,

I've been away from the Church for a long time (nearly two years now) and, while in that time I've occasionally gone to Mass and kept in touch with Catholic friends, I've really begun to miss God. So much so that it's making me consider returning to the Faith. There are still some things I have trouble with and a big question is the issue of homosexuality. I was hoping anyone could offer their thoughts on these, and maybe if you struggled with this too let me know your thoughts.

I think I can see why homosexual acts are wrong in the Catholic vision of sexuality, but I still struggle so much with how some Catholics treat same sex attracted people (active or not). I remember taking a lesbian friend of mine to Mass at a traditional parish when the whole 'Kill the gays' thing was going on in Uganda, and after Mass over coffee this older dude came up to us and began talking about how great it was that there were still countries that punished homosexuality like this. Needless to say my lesbian friend was mortified and I'll probably never get her to come to Mass again. In my country we're still fighting over gay marriage, so I regularly see Catholics on facebook using terms like 'homos' and 'qwerties' to discuss this issue. I even know of a guy that came out as gay and as a result a significant number of his Catholic friends disassociated themselves from him. 

I know that the Catechism condemns homosexual acts, but it also says that homosexual persons should be accepted with respect and not unjustly discriminated against. So, my question is, is it acceptable in Catholicism to have attitudes and engage in behaviours similar to what I've described above and what my experience of Catholicism has been, or are these people not acting in a way that is consistent with the Faith?

How would you, as Catholics, treat homosexual people among your coworkers, social circles and family members?

There is not any evidence to suggest that Catholics harbor more anti-gay prejudice than anyone else, if you are attempting to suggest that anti-gay prejudice is something that is particular to or rampant among Catholics.

Some Catholics exhibit anti-gay prejudice, as do some people of almost every religious or cultural group.

That is the only thing that is stopping you from coming back to the Catholic Church? Or are there other things as well? What are they?

[StMichael]

Wow. Catholics aren't stoning or throwing homosexuals to their death (hello islam). The Church does not teach to bring harm to homosexuals. As with all, whoever they are, they deserve respect.

From the Catechism:

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a6.htm

Chastity and homosexuality

2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,¹⁴¹ tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."¹⁴² They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved. 

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition. 

2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.

Really nothing to add, this is what we believe and follow. Taking other sins and attempting to rationalize, I don't know.

In the US, it is the reverse. One must rid us faith in order to not have these rules. Recently, today, a writer referred to the Bible as fictional and that the Virgin Mary was raped. 

Should 2 men get "married?" No. But up next is 2 men and woman or whatever, because lust is lust.

[superblue]

that and what should also be pointed out is there a difference between being a homosexual, and engaging in homosexual acts.

 

heterosexuals are in the same boat as when it comes to respecting what the act of sex is intended for in the terms of marriage.

In a perfect world, catholics are not engaging in sex before marriage it is still considered a sin if they do and even more so if they use condoms etc. an in reality they would go to the sacrament of reconciliation if they have engaged in such activities.

 

getting hung up on being a homosexual vs the sinful sexual act is one of many bridges to identify.

[Lilllabettt]

 

That serves a lesson to all those to be aware that if you are not the perfect version of Catholicism, youre not allowed to worship God or spend time with Him and his community of followers. 

 

No. If you are not down for the struggle you are not to be tolerated in the midst of the believers. 

Why? Because the believers are down for the struggle. Christian life is a sacrifice. 

Your shunning of the struggle is a burden to those who have not put down the Cross. 

Think about the gay people who were pouring themselves into the struggle, who were striving with every scrap of strength within them to remain true to what they believe. Then comes your sister in law with her "vocal support," proclaiming from the rooftops that their struggle is in vain. No. If that chick cannot shut up she needs to go away. Her presence is a burden to the poor.  

Hi,

I've been away from the Church for a long time (nearly two years now) and, while in that time I've occasionally gone to Mass and kept in touch with Catholic friends, I've really begun to miss God. So much so that it's making me consider returning to the Faith. There are still some things I have trouble with and a big question is the issue of homosexuality. I was hoping anyone could offer their thoughts on these, and maybe if you struggled with this too let me know your thoughts.

I think I can see why homosexual acts are wrong in the Catholic vision of sexuality, but I still struggle so much with how some Catholics treat same sex attracted people (active or not). I remember taking a lesbian friend of mine to Mass at a traditional parish when the whole 'Kill the gays' thing was going on in Uganda, and after Mass over coffee this older dude came up to us and began talking about how great it was that there were still countries that punished homosexuality like this. Needless to say my lesbian friend was mortified and I'll probably never get her to come to Mass again. In my country we're still fighting over gay marriage, so I regularly see Catholics on facebook using terms like 'homos' and 'qwerties' to discuss this issue. I even know of a guy that came out as gay and as a result a significant number of his Catholic friends disassociated themselves from him. 

I know that the Catechism condemns homosexual acts, but it also says that homosexual persons should be accepted with respect and not unjustly discriminated against. So, my question is, is it acceptable in Catholicism to have attitudes and engage in behaviours similar to what I've described above and what my experience of Catholicism has been, or are these people not acting in a way that is consistent with the Faith?

How would you, as Catholics, treat homosexual people among your coworkers, social circles and family members?

 

 

You can go to the most devout traditional Catholic parish in the world, and there among them you will find sins to make you hair stand on end.

Literally the only difference between a good Catholic and a bad Catholic is that good Catholics admit their sins.

There is only one unforgivable sin, and that's the sin of not admitting your sin. 

Church is for hypocrites, and the only people not allowed in are the hypocrites who refuse to admit they are hypocrites. 

Edited September 26, 2015 by Lilllabettt

[Lilllabettt]

gay people that don't believe, get gay married, etc. they are not hypocrites, they are following their conscience. To them I say: Come to my bbq. I will give you my blue ribbon veggie burgers.

gay people that believe, and are not even to the point where they feel strong enough to struggle against having gay sex AT ALL -  but admit their sin, to them I say: lets go to confession and communion my brother who is probably going to be a saint.

gay people who claim to be catholic, don't believe, and go to church on sunday proclaiming that the gay sex they had last night is not a sin, and all people in the parish struggling for chastity are doing it in vain <---- i do not get that person. lets not be friends. lets have cordial conversation before I say I have to go to the bathroom and I run away.

 

 

 

 

Edited September 26, 2015 by Lilllabettt

[Nihil Obstat]

 

Hi,

I've been away from the Church for a long time (nearly two years now) and, while in that time I've occasionally gone to Mass and kept in touch with Catholic friends, I've really begun to miss God. So much so that it's making me consider returning to the Faith. 

If I might change directions for a bit, what does it mean for you to miss God?  

 

[Peace]

Literally the only difference between a good Catholic and a bad Catholic is that good Catholics admit their sins.

Hmm. In what sense do you mean that exactly?

I wouldn't go that far. It ain't like St. Therese was hoeing it out every night . . . I think there are genuinely people out there who live moral lives - who rarely commit mortal sins.

To the extent that we follow the teachings of the Church we are "good" and to the extent that we sin we are "bad".  I think that is the dividing line between what I would call a good Catholic and a bad Catholic . . . not whether or not a person admits that he is a sinner.

[Lilllabettt]

Hmm. In what sense do you mean that exactly?

I wouldn't go that far. It ain't like St. Therese was hoeing it out every night . . . I think there are genuinely people out there who live moral lives - who rarely commit mortal sins.

To the extent that we follow the teachings of the Church we are "good" and to the extent that we sin we are "bad".  I think that is the dividing line between what I would call a good Catholic and a bad Catholic . . . not whether or not a person admits that he is a sinner.

St Therese's entire doctrine was based on the idea that she was a sinner and that by acknowledging that fact she could be completely confident in God's mercy. 1. Awareness of the need for God's mercy 2. Total confidence in His mercy

[MarysLittleFlower]

And where exactly did you develop this ability to read people's minds and hearts?

 

If your brother's fiance was a vocal supporter of pre-marital sex then she would (and should) not be allowed to be the cantor, either. There is a difference between committing a sin in the past and continuing to stubbornly advocate a teaching that is contrary to what the Church teaches. A person can have pre-marital sex, admit that it was wrong, and commit to live in accordance with what the Church teaches. The people who welcomed your brother with open arms may have done so because they had no reason to believe that your brother and his fiance are currently advocating pre-marital sex, although they are human and did so in the past. That is completely different than someone who says "I will continue to have pre-marital sex and advocate that others do the same" or someone that says "I believe that gay people should be allowed to be married and advocate that others should believe the same too."

Should I expect to become a pastor at a Protestant Church and while preaching that the Pope has full authority? I don't see why one should expect to represent the Catholic Church while openly contradicting what She teaches.

 

This is straight up nonsense. This is nothing more than an attempt to slander.

That's a pretty good point and I didn't think of that... Past actions repented of vs ideologies 

I think the Church is a "hospital for sinners" so its not a surprise to find sinners there. Hey - I am one too. At the same time we should try to overcome the sins of course. So we admit them and repent and try to be better and become holier. 

[Peace]

 

St Therese's entire doctrine was based on the idea that she was a sinner and that by acknowledging that fact she could be completely confident in God's mercy. 1. Awareness of the need for God's mercy 2. Total confidence in His mercy

I would guess that applies to most if not all of the saints. But they still lived lives that were holy. Not perfect of course, but I don't think you can really say that the only difference between them and Sasha Grey is that they admitted that they were sinners and needed God's mercy. They strove to lives their lives in a way that is pleasing to God - I think that is what one would call a good Catholic.

I suppose that when I read your post, I kind of thought like "Well, then there is no real world difference between a person who knows and follows God and one who does not." But that's not the case, right? As we attempt to follow God and develop a closer relationship with God our actions change. He enables us to live lives that are more holy and we become holier . . .

[PhuturePriest]

 

I would guess that applies to most if not all of the saints. But they still lived lives that were holy. Not perfect of course, but I don't think you can really say that the only difference between them and Sasha Grey is that they admitted that they were sinners and needed God's mercy. They strove to lives their lives in a way that is pleasing to God - I think that is what one would call a good Catholic.

I suppose that when I read your post, I kind of thought like "Well, then there is no real world difference between a person who knows and follows God and one who does not." But that's not the case, right? As we attempt to follow God and develop a closer relationship with God our actions change. He enables us to live lives that are more holy and we become holier . . .

In essence: "God doesn't require us to succeed, he only requires that you try." -- Blessed Mother Teresa

[Gabriela]

How would you, as Catholics, treat homosexual people among your coworkers, social circles and family members?

I'd invite them out for Thai. If they can accept me as a Catholic, I have no problem accepting them as homosexuals. I have a lot of gay friends. They're all wonderful people who are way less judgmental and more kind and open-minded than a lot of Catholics I know. Because they've struggled with their identities, I can relate to them more than I can to a lot of straight people.

My only concern with my gay friends is that they'll ask: Do you agree with the Church about homosexuality? If they do, I tell them, and then try to explain what others above have already said: It's a sin, but I also sin, and I don't judge your sins any more harshly than my own. Sin is sin.

Fortunately, my gay friends seem to recognize that I believe with the Church in all things, and they just never ask. So we get on fine loving one another without any potential for offense.

[Maggyie]

You make good points, some of which I also have brought up. Dont we all sin? Why are only those in the LGTBQ+ community shunned? My brother and his fiance had premarital sex and a child out of wedlock yet everyone in their Catholic community of friends welcomed them with open arms. However his fiance is an adamant supporter of the LGTBQ+ community as well as gay marriage and was not only chastised on multiple occasions by those in her parish, but she was also pushed out. She has a PhD in vocal performance and was their cantor on sundays but because of her beliefs on homosexuality (and not for her premarital sex), they wouldnt allow her to participate anymore. 

 

That serves a lesson to all those to be aware that if you are not the perfect version of Catholicism, youre not allowed to worship God or spend time with Him and his community of followers. 

there's a difference between sinning and advocating that there is no such thing as sin. Of course we must welcome all sinners including people in irregular relationships of all kinds (although not so sure she should have been cantoring. But whatever.

However it's beyond rude and pretty bigoted to join a community and then start telling them that their thousands-of-years old heritage of sexual ethics is wrong. If she went around saying "pre marital sex is great, hurray for having babies out of wedlock" she would have got the side-eye too. I mean seriously who does that? I'd love for her to get actual diversity in her life and attend a mosque or shul, march in there and start telling them how to run things. Smh. Hopefully she is educated enough to not do that, but for some reason with Christianity people feel entitled to act like they were raised in a barn. 

[dominicansoul]

To the original post:  I would pray and ask the Holy Spirit to give you the grace and the wisdom to focus your life on Jesus Christ.  People who leave the church based on the behaviors of some of the worst members to me... Well they just didn't have a relationship with Christ.  I've been Catholic all my life and I've face some of the worst hatred you can imagine:  from me and my family being thrown out of a Catholic Church in an all white parish we visited back in the 80s to facing racism even from religious sisters!  Was this disappointing?  Of course!  But did I Even think for one second about leaving the Church?  Why would I ever do that when its between me and Christ?  It's not between me and anyone else!  I would NEVER leave THE EUCHARIST!  I would starve!!!  it sounds like you need to get your priorities in order.  Focus on your relationship with Jesus and pray for the members of the church who disappoint you... And don't let anyone separate you from the love of Christ!