Questions about homosexuality before returning to the Faith

[Aragon]

Hi,

I've been away from the Church for a long time (nearly two years now) and, while in that time I've occasionally gone to Mass and kept in touch with Catholic friends, I've really begun to miss God. So much so that it's making me consider returning to the Faith. There are still some things I have trouble with and a big question is the issue of homosexuality. I was hoping anyone could offer their thoughts on these, and maybe if you struggled with this too let me know your thoughts.

I think I can see why homosexual acts are wrong in the Catholic vision of sexuality, but I still struggle so much with how some Catholics treat same sex attracted people (active or not). I remember taking a lesbian friend of mine to Mass at a traditional parish when the whole 'Kill the gays' thing was going on in Uganda, and after Mass over coffee this older dude came up to us and began talking about how great it was that there were still countries that punished homosexuality like this. Needless to say my lesbian friend was mortified and I'll probably never get her to come to Mass again. In my country we're still fighting over gay marriage, so I regularly see Catholics on facebook using terms like 'homos' and 'qwerties' to discuss this issue. I even know of a guy that came out as gay and as a result a significant number of his Catholic friends disassociated themselves from him. 

I know that the Catechism condemns homosexual acts, but it also says that homosexual persons should be accepted with respect and not unjustly discriminated against. So, my question is, is it acceptable in Catholicism to have attitudes and engage in behaviours similar to what I've described above and what my experience of Catholicism has been, or are these people not acting in a way that is consistent with the Faith?

How would you, as Catholics, treat homosexual people among your coworkers, social circles and family members?

 

[Maggyie]

No the nasty attitudes you describe are not consistent with the faith. Unfortunately few people actually behave the way their religion (or other system of ethics) demands they do. 

The sex lives of co-workers, friends, family members are of limited interest, however again very few people behave in what I consider an ethical manner. Many divorces, premarital relations, same sex relations, use of contraception. They know my religion and treat me with respect and I treat them the same way. Although we heartily disapprove of each other.

 

[Ancilla Domini]

I know the experience you've described. I go to a music school and I and one other family are the only Catholics who attend, the night that I am there. This other Catholic family has an affinity for starting religious debates during our breaks and then backing out and leaving them to me to juggle with, which makes for some quite awkward moments for me, as I can be rather shy and don't really like being the centre of attention.

One thing they are most eager to jump on is the subject of homosexuality. Someone else in the room will mention "a gay friend" or will ask why we "hate gays" and they will invariably come out with some outrageous quote such as, "We hate them, they're going to hell. They should all be taken to an island alone and starved." Of course, I can't let that stand, so I need to jump in and explain.

Homosexuality is disordered, because it is a sinful lifestyle. But all sin is disorder - every single last sin, from annoying your little brother to committing murder. Homosexuality is a particularly strong and difficult temptation, and when one submits to it, it is a grave sin; but we don't hate gays. We love them. We hate their sin, because sin is the absence of good, and goodness is beautiful; but we love them as people, we pray for them, we want as much good for them as for our closest loved one, but we want them to reject their sin.

Some people have a hard time separating the hatred of sin from the hatred of the sinner, and that is an extremely important distinction. Sometimes, in their hatred of a sin, they will become angry and wish ill upon the sinner himself. But this isn't how the Church teaches and desires her members to act.

However, one also cannot merely accept, tolerate, and embrace them as if their is no problem. One must understand that they are sinful (just as we all are), but, lovingly, wish to help them to overcome this and to return to being children of grace, of the Church, and of Christ.

 

I don't know if I explained myself clearly, or if all you more qualified people agree with me or not. I am a frequenter of the lame-board and never believe myself qualified enough to make a serious post. Bear with me while I learn.

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

Sexual vice, greed for money and drunkardness are the 3 most warned against sins for a follower of the way to avoid. These i believe to be the biggest destroyers of faithfullness to God, his holy word in the bible and sacred tradition. Though you may still believe but scripture tells us so do the demons believe there is one God and they tremble with fear.

We should treat all with charity in word and deed without concealing the known truth.

Edited September 25, 2015 by Tab'le De'Bah-Rye

[MarysLittleFlower]

I think that there are two things that are wrong - accepting homosexual lifestyle and actions as "ok" or treating homosexuals in a belittling or hateful way. The Church doesn't teach either. The CCC says that homosexual actions are wrong but homosexuals should be treated with love even active homosexuals ..this doesn't mean giving the impression of agreeing with the actions...after all, we are all sinners and being shown charity can convert a soul. There's a story about St Gemma helping a prostitute to leave her life and St Francis helping robbers repent just through an act of humility and charity. So to answer your question no the Church doesn't teach that we need to oppose homosexual agenda in society by calling homosexuals names or saying "they're going to hell" or anything like that. Just as we aren't supposed to say that about anyone.

[Not The Philosopher]

If you're familiar with the Catechism, you should be able to answer your own question here.

There are always going to be jerks within the Church until the end of time. There will always be jerks outside the Church, too. It's flawed human nature at work.

You've posted about this more than once before, so it's clearly an issue that greatly distresses you, so I doubt that a few random people on the internet have the power of consoling you that the light is stronger than the darkness in here or any other issue. Only whatever faith you have can do that.

[Oremus Pro Invicem]

@Aragon: Would you stay away from Jesus because of Judas? 

[CrossCuT]

@Aragon, I understand completely what you are going through although Im not sure how much solace I can give you. Homosexuality was really the catalyst for me leaving the faith although I still feel similarly to you. Its not something I can ever abandon completely because it was such a huge part of my upbringing.

But that still doesnt make up for the experiences of the faithful towards the LGTBQ+ community; its absolutely disgusting. Ive tried to make sense of it myself and the best thing I have come up with is just that when you truly believe in the core of your being that something is evil, sinful, loathsome, and unnatural, that it leaks out and is made manifest in your behavior. I think its really impossible for most people to separate the two. There are some Catholics who actually are totally loving towards members of the LGTBQ+ community, but I believe that deep down, they dont actually feel the same level of disgust and loathing so its easier for them to be mediators of love.

But I just dont believe the feelings and actions can be separated, I truly dont. Im sure people can quote me and say "CC I can totally be loving to the person and hate the sin at the same time!!!" I dont believe you. There is a part of you that hates - that despises a part of that person you see in front of you. I do not believe you can truly dissociate from those feelings.
 

[franciscanheart]

Hi,

I've been away from the Church for a long time (nearly two years now) and, while in that time I've occasionally gone to Mass and kept in touch with Catholic friends, I've really begun to miss God. So much so that it's making me consider returning to the Faith. There are still some things I have trouble with and a big question is the issue of homosexuality. I was hoping anyone could offer their thoughts on these, and maybe if you struggled with this too let me know your thoughts.

I think I can see why homosexual acts are wrong in the Catholic vision of sexuality, but I still struggle so much with how some Catholics treat same sex attracted people (active or not). I remember taking a lesbian friend of mine to Mass at a traditional parish when the whole 'Kill the gays' thing was going on in Uganda, and after Mass over coffee this older dude came up to us and began talking about how great it was that there were still countries that punished homosexuality like this. Needless to say my lesbian friend was mortified and I'll probably never get her to come to Mass again. In my country we're still fighting over gay marriage, so I regularly see Catholics on facebook using terms like 'homos' and 'qwerties' to discuss this issue. I even know of a guy that came out as gay and as a result a significant number of his Catholic friends disassociated themselves from him. 

I know that the Catechism condemns homosexual acts, but it also says that homosexual persons should be accepted with respect and not unjustly discriminated against. So, my question is, is it acceptable in Catholicism to have attitudes and engage in behaviours similar to what I've described above and what my experience of Catholicism has been, or are these people not acting in a way that is consistent with the Faith?

How would you, as Catholics, treat homosexual people among your coworkers, social circles and family members?

 

Their actions are incongruent with the faith they profess.

[MarysLittleFlower]

@Aragon, I understand completely what you are going through although Im not sure how much solace I can give you. Homosexuality was really the catalyst for me leaving the faith although I still feel similarly to you. Its not something I can ever abandon completely because it was such a huge part of my upbringing.

But that still doesnt make up for the experiences of the faithful towards the LGTBQ+ community; its absolutely disgusting. Ive tried to make sense of it myself and the best thing I have come up with is just that when you truly believe in the core of your being that something is evil, sinful, loathsome, and unnatural, that it leaks out and is made manifest in your behavior. I think its really impossible for most people to separate the two. There are some Catholics who actually are totally loving towards members of the LGTBQ+ community, but I believe that deep down, they dont actually feel the same level of disgust and loathing so its easier for them to be mediators of love.

But I just dont believe the feelings and actions can be separated, I truly dont. Im sure people can quote me and say "CC I can totally be loving to the person and hate the sin at the same time!!!" I dont believe you. There is a part of you that hates - that despises a part of that person you see in front of you. I do not believe you can truly dissociate from those feelings.
 

i see what you mean but I don't think its like that to be honest. I love my friends and family though we all have sins. Isn't all sin evil? If we can see that someone sins and yet love them, wouldn't that be for any sin? After all I sin too. In the case of a homosexual person who lives chastely they are not even sinning. But what I mean is... If Catholics can love others though they commit sins why would loving people who live a homosexual lifestyle be any different? If Catholics show any personal hatred towards homosexuals that is a lack of charity but as we grow spiritually we grow in charity too. Most of us are not Saints yet though we should try to get there.

If its impossible to hate the sin and love the sinner, then we should be hating all those around us and ourselves. Yet the Saints demonstrate great self sacrificing love even towards the worst sinners. If we show lack of charity, that is an area to grow in. We need to be patient with others in this way too. 

[CrossCuT]

i see what you mean but I don't think its like that to be honest. I love my friends and family though we all have sins. Isn't all sin evil? If we can see that someone sins and yet love them, wouldn't that be for any sin? After all I sin too. In the case of a homosexual person who lives chastely they are not even sinning. But what I mean is... If Catholics can love others though they commit sins why would loving people who live a homosexual lifestyle be any different? If Catholics show any personal hatred towards homosexuals that is a lack of charity but as we grow spiritually we grow in charity too. Most of us are not Saints yet though we should try to get there.

You make good points, some of which I also have brought up. Dont we all sin? Why are only those in the LGTBQ+ community shunned? My brother and his fiance had premarital sex and a child out of wedlock yet everyone in their Catholic community of friends welcomed them with open arms. However his fiance is an adamant supporter of the LGTBQ+ community as well as gay marriage and was not only chastised on multiple occasions by those in her parish, but she was also pushed out. She has a PhD in vocal performance and was their cantor on sundays but because of her beliefs on homosexuality (and not for her premarital sex), they wouldnt allow her to participate anymore. 

 

That serves a lesson to all those to be aware that if you are not the perfect version of Catholicism, youre not allowed to worship God or spend time with Him and his community of followers. 

Edited September 25, 2015 by CrossCuT

[KnightofChrist]

What others think of us is no reason to risk the lost of our souls. Worrying too much about what other people think can in effect allow those persons to rule over us. We are all called to admit our sins, repent of our sins, keep the faith and love Christ above all.

[MarysLittleFlower]

You make good points, some of which I also have brought up. Dont we all sin? Why are only those in the LGTBQ+ community shunned? My brother and his fiance had premarital sex and a child out of wedlock yet everyone in their Catholic community of friends welcomed them with open arms. However his fiance is an adamant supporter of the LGTBQ+ community as well as gay marriage and was not only chastised on multiple occasions by those in her parish, but she was also pushed out. She has a PhD in vocal performance and was their cantor on sundays but because of her beliefs on homosexuality (and not for her premarital sex), they wouldnt allow her to participate anymore. 

 

That serves a lesson to all those to be aware that if you are not the perfect version of Catholicism, youre not allowed to worship God or spend time with Him and his community of followers. 

Well personally ...I think every grave sin is serious, and those who commit these sins or support them shouldn't be pushed away from a parish but neither do I think they should be in leadership positions, rather be helped to come back to the Church. For any sin.. In my parish I don't get the sense that certain sins are accepted while others not, rather the priests teach both fighting sin and patience with others  

[Oremus Pro Invicem]

You make good points, some of which I also have brought up. Dont we all sin? Why are only those in the LGTBQ+ community shunned? My brother and his fiance had premarital sex and a child out of wedlock yet everyone in their Catholic community of friends welcomed them with open arms. However his fiance is an adamant supporter of the LGTBQ+ community as well as gay marriage and was not only chastised on multiple occasions by those in her parish, but she was also pushed out. She has a PhD in vocal performance and was their cantor on sundays but because of her beliefs on homosexuality (and not for her premarital sex), they wouldnt allow her to participate anymore. 

 

That serves a lesson to all those to be aware that if you are not the perfect version of Catholicism, youre not allowed to worship God or spend time with Him and his community of followers. 

Well that's not the case since she wasn't perfect due to pre marital sex and she was still welcomed by the community. I think the problem is one of actions vs. ideologies.  Actions can be forgiven, repented of, and mended.  Supporting ideologies which support/promote sin should never be tolerated since the LGBTQ+ Community ideology is in direct opposition to Catholicism.  

[Peace]

But that still doesnt make up for the experiences of the faithful towards the LGTBQ+ community; its absolutely disgusting. Ive tried to make sense of it myself and the best thing I have come up with is just that when you truly believe in the core of your being that something is evil, sinful, loathsome, and unnatural, that it leaks out and is made manifest in your behavior. I think its really impossible for most people to separate the two. There are some Catholics who actually are totally loving towards members of the LGTBQ+ community, but I believe that deep down, they dont actually feel the same level of disgust and loathing so its easier for them to be mediators of love.

And where exactly did you develop this ability to read people's minds and hearts?

You make good points, some of which I also have brought up. Dont we all sin? Why are only those in the LGTBQ+ community shunned? My brother and his fiance had premarital sex and a child out of wedlock yet everyone in their Catholic community of friends welcomed them with open arms. However his fiance is an adamant supporter of the LGTBQ+ community as well as gay marriage and was not only chastised on multiple occasions by those in her parish, but she was also pushed out. She has a PhD in vocal performance and was their cantor on sundays but because of her beliefs on homosexuality (and not for her premarital sex), they wouldnt allow her to participate anymore. 

If your brother's fiance was a vocal supporter of pre-marital sex then she would (and should) not be allowed to be the cantor, either. There is a difference between committing a sin in the past and continuing to stubbornly advocate a teaching that is contrary to what the Church teaches. A person can have pre-marital sex, admit that it was wrong, and commit to live in accordance with what the Church teaches. The people who welcomed your brother with open arms may have done so because they had no reason to believe that your brother and his fiance are currently advocating pre-marital sex, although they are human and did so in the past. That is completely different than someone who says "I will continue to have pre-marital sex and advocate that others do the same" or someone that says "I believe that gay people should be allowed to be married and advocate that others should believe the same too."

Should I expect to become a pastor at a Protestant Church and while preaching that the Pope has full authority? I don't see why one should expect to represent the Catholic Church while openly contradicting what She teaches.

 

That serves a lesson to all those to be aware that if you are not the perfect version of Catholicism, youre not allowed to worship God or spend time with Him and his community of followers. 

This is straight up nonsense. This is nothing more than an attempt to slander.