adhoc Posted September 21, 2015 Share Posted September 21, 2015 Me and my significant other are about 40. She is infertile. We are contemplating marriage. She does not have a strong drive, usually. And has mentioned to me about living in chastity, i.e. celibacy. I am not sure if she meant temporarily or permanently. I have a normal drive but am thinking about embracing Josephite marriage. That is marriage without sexual activity. The focus of that marriage would be adopting children and making that the primary focus. I am hoping that I will be granted such a gift if I make a sacrifice and don't have a me-oriented situation. I found out, from my experiences, that sexual activity is self-absorbed, draining and takes away from some other pursuits. I've struggled with lust for a very long time so it will be a challenging transition. The duality of man is very apparent here. Spiritually I feel ready, physically I am always behind. I realize some discussion needs to take place. Of course anytime she wants to go back to a "default" relationship, I am on the same page. It's just that in terms of procreation, there is limited sense in intimacy given her infertility, that only leaves "unity" which seems to be a lesser component. I think she understands that. So if my significant other does embrace the concept of Josephite marriage, I am there to support her and I think it will develop me spiritually as well as strengthen our relationship. She wants to adopt several kids and so do I. So I feel like I would benefit from some guidelines. I don't know if we will end up taking the Josephite vows. That is a possibility, if not now, maybe in several years. I have carefully read about the matter here, there are lots of valid points made in that thread. Though I am in a different situation in life, I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabriela Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 Welcome to Phatmass, adhoc! First of all, to my knowledge, Josephite marriage is no longer permitted by the Church. This would seem to be confirmed by the fact that entrance into a union (i.e., into a marriage) with no intent of procreating is grounds for a declaration of nullity of the union. That your partner is infertile makes no difference in the matter. @Sponsa-Christi: Can you confirm this? (Sponsa-Christi is a canon lawyer, adhoc.) Second, "unity" is in no sense a lesser component of the marital act than the "procreative" component. They are equally important. I would advise that you speak to a priest about this matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adhoc Posted September 22, 2015 Author Share Posted September 22, 2015 Interesting point you make, I think you are right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antonius Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 IIRC, Josephite marriages were allowed for seriously pious/religious people who were forced to marry for legal/inheritance purposes. It will be enough of a challenge for you to get married and truly "will the good of the other" instead of lusting over one another. Anyway, talking with a good priest about this will be helpful. 40 is also a difficult age to start adopting babies, but you've got the right idea that your love will fall apart if it doesn't reach out to love others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilllabettt Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 (edited) Welcome to Phatmass, adhoc! First of all, to my knowledge, Josephite marriage is no longer permitted by the Church. This would seem to be confirmed by the fact that entrance into a union (i.e., into a marriage) with no intent of procreating is grounds for a declaration of nullity of the union. That your partner is infertile makes no difference in the matter. @Sponsa-Christi: Can you confirm this? (Sponsa-Christi is a canon lawyer, adhoc.) Second, "unity" is in no sense a lesser component of the marital act than the "procreative" component. They are equally important. I would advise that you speak to a priest about this matter. josephite marriages are not consummated - the marriage is still valid, presuming the lack of consummation does not stem from impotence or some other impediment. Valid, unconsummated. ratum tantum. Edited September 22, 2015 by Lilllabettt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adhoc Posted September 22, 2015 Author Share Posted September 22, 2015 There are no problems with impotence or other impediments, the issue is infertility. Maybe I am overthinking this and should just stay with status quo. We rarely have intimate encounters anyway, maybe averaging once per month. And maybe that's just fine. She still has a modicum of hope that kids are possible and tries to time these encounters with her supposedly fertile periods, to no avail -- for years now. So theoretically these encounters are procreative. De facto, I don't know, not very. Everyone is frustrated. I've come to accept things. I have friends who have truly embraced the Josephite marriage concept and they are not what I would call a success story. They have a "cold war" going on. So I think I am going to reject the paradigm. Since fertility is not a focal point, like it not, I guess that leaves lust and whatever else is left. I am just being brutally honest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sponsa-Christi Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 Welcome to Phatmass, adhoc! First of all, to my knowledge, Josephite marriage is no longer permitted by the Church. This would seem to be confirmed by the fact that entrance into a union (i.e., into a marriage) with no intent of procreating is grounds for a declaration of nullity of the union. That your partner is infertile makes no difference in the matter. @Sponsa-Christi: Can you confirm this? (Sponsa-Christi is a canon lawyer, adhoc.) Second, "unity" is in no sense a lesser component of the marital act than the "procreative" component. They are equally important. I would advise that you speak to a priest about this matter. The short answer is: technically, Josephite marriages ARE still permitted, but this is an extremely rare vocation that would require a great deal of very careful discernment on the part of both parties. As a longer explanation: As a general principle, for a marriage to be valid, both parties need intend to be married as the Church understand marriage. Specifically, both parties need to be capable of consummating the marriage; and both parties need to be aware that marriage ordinarily involves sexual intercourse ordered towards procreation. Also, for a marriage to be valid both parties need to be open and honest about aspects of themselves which directly pertain to marriage---e.g., one spouse can't have a hidden intention of having a Josephite marriage that they then reveal to the other spouse only after the wedding, etc. A lawful marriage is valid and binding regardless of whether or not it is actually consummated (although a valid but unconsummated marriage can be dissolved by the Holy Father as a specially granted favor). So theoretically, a couple could marry--as in, exchange vows at the altar--and then mutually agree to refrain from sexual intercourse out of pious motives. However, my thought is that there are still a lot of potentially tricky issues vis-a-vis validity, consent, and the nature of one's intentions to be married. (For example...what if after the wedding, one spouse feels that God is indeed calling them to consummate their marriage after all? If the other spouse is dead-set against ever having relations, ever, under any circumstances...one could possibly argue in a marriage tribunal that the resisting spouse never intended to be truly married.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adhoc Posted September 22, 2015 Author Share Posted September 22, 2015 I get your point. Right now our beliefs seem to circle around the idea that intimacy is for procreative use only, she still has a modicum of hope things will work out. She does want to try invitro, which I am against. We don't believe in NFP however, we both believe that abstinence is the only form of contraception. She thinks there isn't that much point to engage during her supposedly infertile period. One part of me agrees, the other doesn't. So I don't know what will happen when we adopt, or by some miracle, have kids, or when it becomes 100% clear conception will never happen. Things are slowly evolving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sponsa-Christi Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 There are no problems with impotence or other impediments, the issue is infertility. Maybe I am overthinking this and should just stay with status quo. We rarely have intimate encounters anyway, maybe averaging once per month. And maybe that's just fine. She still has a modicum of hope that kids are possible and tries to time these encounters with her supposedly fertile periods, to no avail -- for years now. So theoretically these encounters are procreative. De facto, I don't know, not very. Everyone is frustrated. I've come to accept things. I have friends who have truly embraced the Josephite marriage concept and they are not what I would call a success story. They have a "cold war" going on. So I think I am going to reject the paradigm. Since fertility is not a focal point, like it not, I guess that leaves lust and whatever else is left. I am just being brutally honest. From what you've written here, it looks like you're perfectly capable of having a normal, valid marriage. (And actually...if you're having "intimate encounters" at all in the first place, you should resolve to stop these until you are married, since having sexual relations outside of marriage is a serious sin.) For a marriage to be valid, the only thing necessary is that you be physically capable of consummating the marriage, fundamentally willing on at least some level to consummate it, and that you be open to whatever life results from sexual intercourse. "Open to life" means that you're willing to accept whatever children God sends you, if God chooses to send you children---it does NOT mean "actually achieve a pregnancy." So infertility which results from natural causes is absolutely not an impediment to marriage. If one of the potential spouses has fertility problems and a low sex drive, it's perfectly fine to get married, and then let intimacy develop at whatever pace you both feel comfortable with. I get your point. Right now our beliefs seem to circle around the idea that intimacy is for procreative use only, she still has a modicum of hope things will work out. She does want to try invitro, which I am against. We don't believe in NFP however, we both believe that abstinence is the only form of contraception. She thinks there isn't that much point to engage during her supposedly infertile period. One part of me agrees, the other doesn't. So I don't know what will happen when we adopt, or by some miracle, have kids, or when it becomes 100% clear conception will never happen. Things are slowly evolving. The Catholic Church teaches that intimacy has to be OPEN to procreation, not that every act has to result in a pregnancy. Especially if spouses are hoping to get pregnant, it's completely fine to have relations even knowing that conception is unlikely. Catholics believe that the creation of new life is ultimately in God's hands. If God doesn't send a couple a child, that's a reflection of God's mysterious will, and not necessarily anything the couple did or didn't do. Artificial contraception is a problem because it's human beings actively and deliberately trying to stop the possibility of God's creation---whereas NFP is working within God's plan without actively stopping Him. I.e., it's not a sin to have relations at a time of month when the woman is know or thought to be naturally infertile, because your actions are still open to the POSSIBILITY that God will create a new life, even if that possibility is unlikely. Essentially, NFP is using selectively-timed abstinence as a form of "contraception." I hope that makes sense! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adhoc Posted September 22, 2015 Author Share Posted September 22, 2015 I don't know what will happen when we adopt, or by some miracle, have kids, or when it becomes 100% clear conception will never happen. Things are slowly evolving. She did tell me that if we do conceive, she wants no sexual activity during the spacing period between kids. No contraception, no NFP, total abstinence. I certainly support her, she thinks that it should be oriented towards procreation only. And also no activity of any kind when kids are no longer the focus. Which is probably in about 5 years. I don't think I would have accepted this worldview in my 20's or 30's. I am heading towards mid 40's - fast. Aging seems to accelerate the older you get, weird. Yeah it makes complete sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antigonos Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 Speaking purely with my nurse-midwife hat on, as someone who worked in a fertility clinic for a number of years, let me just note that the chances of conception, either spontaneous or with assisted reproductive techniques, drops off drastically for women over 40. So even if you were interested in trying for a pregnancy via IVF [very probably needing a donor egg], the chances are fairly low. Adoption, for couples in their 40s, is usually very difficult. Nowadays, it is not easy even for young, suitable couples as the demand, so to speak, far outstrips demand. Sometimes the only option is to take an older child, or one with special needs. In this latter category, the agency placing the child want to be sure the parents won't die before the child is an adult and self-sufficient, so your age goes against you here. As someone who was born to a couple in their forties, I can tell you that it is not easy to either be the child of older parents, or to be an older parent oneself. You just don't have the vigor, stamina, or flexibility of younger people. Remember that, if 40 now, you would be [most likely] in your mid to later 50s with a teenager to cope with. Adolescence isn't easy for ANY parent to cope with Lastly, I'm deliberately avoiding the issue of the marital relationship itself, since, being Jewish, I have a very different concept of what marriage is meant to be. But let me just say that companionship is the central issue of living with anyone else. If you two are running on very different tracks, no matter what the intention, friction is going to result -- and sex, or the lack of it -- is the elephant in the room. Normal couples, with normal sex lives, experience periods when they aren't "in sync" and it generates tension to a greater or lesser degree. If one partner in a marriage wants to live a celibate life but the other has normal urges, this is going to be, eventually, a major area of conflict, no matter how good one's intentions are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adhoc Posted September 22, 2015 Author Share Posted September 22, 2015 Good point what do you mean here? " being Jewish, I have a very different concept of what marriage is meant to be." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antigonos Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 Good point what do you mean here? " being Jewish, I have a very different concept of what marriage is meant to be." I'm not sure that this is the place to discuss it, but the emphasis on procreation is not stressed as much in Judaism. One of the benedictions recited as part of the wedding ceremony is that the bride and groom find in each other the same joy that they had in the pristine state of the Garden of Eden. Sexual pleasure, within the parameters of married life is a gift of God. So, while procreation is a major aim of marriage, it is not the sole reason for it. Judaism sees no benefit in virginity or the celibate state as such. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adhoc Posted September 22, 2015 Author Share Posted September 22, 2015 Well I suppose you are right about that to an extent, I see your point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adhoc Posted September 22, 2015 Author Share Posted September 22, 2015 We did talk to a priest. He said that we should come up with a schedule that we are both happy with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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