Faith Alone Denies Free Will?

[the lumberjack]

[quote name='Mary's Knight, La' date='Jun 16 2004, 06:29 PM'] *this is somewhat off topic*
hey lumberjack PM me with whether i interpreted what you said

you make a very important distinction of the saved having freedom in Christ (e.g. in some way limiting themselves to what He wills) as opposed to having freedom through Christ (e.g. pass through the door way and whatever you can access is fair game) if i understand both you and Catholic theology we very much agree on this.

Here's an issue i'd like you to answer: if someone were saved and then acted out of Christ (out of or contrary to His will) does that mean 1. they were never *saved* in the first place as in if they died they wouldn't have go to heaven (note here i mean before the act) 2. they were saved before the act but now are not or 3 they were saved before the act and remain saved during and afterwards.

I ask this because usually when questioning non-catholics about free will the only answer i get is a saved person wouldn't do that bringing up a 4th possibility of once being saved a person loses a part of their will that would allow them to act out of Christ. [/quote]
beholdwhite,

i ALWAYS use the pukey guy...don't worry bout it.

--------

Mary's knight,

you're pretty much right on in interpreting what I had stated.

as for your question...

God knows ALL...right? right.

so God knows if you're truly saved, right? right.

if you're a TRUE Christian and you act out of Christ, as we do so often, God will not condemn you to an eternity of damnation for that one thing, should you die shortly thereafter.

hmm... were they never saved? not if they are able to acknowledge to God that they sinned, and are willing to turn from it.

Going with the issue of prayer that homeschoolmom brought up, God knows what we want, so He also knows what we've done and if we feel bad for it...this does not mean He doesn't want us to acknowledge it, and confess it to Him...

so with that, if they turn from the sin they commit, then you can not say they were never saved...Romans 8:28-35 (I think) takes care of that...and what did Christ say? NO ONE can snatch them out of my hand...

but like I said, if they die shortly after, without having had the opportunity to repent of it, I'm pretty sure that the Lord won't condemn them for all eternity for that one act... lets not bring up any EXTREME cases, which we know a Christian would not do.

they were saved and now they're not? hmm...seems as if they were never saved to begin with if this were the case...you can't NOT be unsaved once you are saved.

this is NOT OSAS, which you all LOVE TO HATE, but its just fact... the children of God, though we may sin, will always be His children, even when we mess up. so, if you are TRULY a Christian, even when you mess up, the Lord will forgive you and bring you back to where He wants you.

ALL things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.... right?

they were saved before the act and remain saved during and afterwards...hmmm

this sounds a little bit like the person would not have to repent...you can feel remorse and regret for an action, and like I said before, God knows our feelings and thoughts, but JUST LIKE PRAYER, He wants US to acknowledge and confess it. but yeah, overall, though we might not be walking in grace EVERY moment of every day, the Lord knows our hearts and will bring us back and closer to Him.

I feel like I've repeated myself like repeated myself like repeated myself like 12 times....oh well...hope I hope I hope I made sense.

and as for the last possibility, here's my response...we will always have our will. this is what makes us who we are. emotions can muddle it up, as well as a bunch of other variables that can be thrown in at any one time...but we have Christ, so in a sense, we HAVE lost at least part of a part of our will to act out of Christ. once we receive Christ, have we not died to this flesh? are we not therefore subject to Christ? so, if you are truly subject to Christ, you will be guided out of it before that sinful option should come up.

not that we will ALWAYS walk in total submission to Christ...we do tend to get overconfident or lazy in our walk from time to time, allowing these things to happen...

see, here's the funny thing about this...if you're NOT TRULY "saved" while you're alive, and salvation doesn't come till you're dead...how will you ever know that you're really saved?

I mean, I'm dead to this world, but still live in it.
I'm dead to this corrupt flesh, but still abide in it.
I praise the Lord that I'm saved by Christ and indwelt by the Holy Ghost, but still battle with my flesh.

when I die, just take the same three sentences and chop off everything after the comma.

I don't live for Christ in HOPE of going to heaven, I live for Christ BECAUSE I'm going to heaven...and because He's gonna chop off the commas!

Amen and amen.

God bless.

Christ first.

[nikkan_hanil]

[quote name='DojoGrant' date='Jun 16 2004, 01:06 PM'] Is the following logic wrong?  If so, don't just say so, but be precise and provide definitions to make sure words are being used in the same way.

1) Salvation is obtained by faith alone.
2) Faith is the free gift of God.  It is not merited by anyone.
3) Salavation is therefore both free and unmerited.
4) Works play no part in salvation.
5) Work includes both physical (ex: manual labor) and
  mental (ex: calculating math in the head) faculties.
6) Making a decision is a process of the mental faculties and is thus work.
7) Therefore, making a decision to accept the gift of faith is a work.
8) Salvation is obtained without acceptance of Christ (a work), thus, man is not
  involved in his salvation
9) Man does not have free will to chose or reject God; he is predestined to salvation
  or damnation [/quote]
Here sre my answers. They're not perfect, but here's my bit:

1. Nope. Hold fast to sacred tradition. DOnt forget about the Eucharist as well (John 6:47)

2. Faith is faith, whether put to religious means or not. However, faith in some sort of belief or spiritual purpose is what flows from God, but one may find faith in God themselves.

3. Salvation is earned. No one is ever truly saved while still standing on the dirt of the earth.

4. Twas the same lie that stopped Calvin and Puritan doctrine from making perfect sense. The works of the saints are more than enough example to the gateway of heaven.

5. I believe your leaving out "spiritual", my friend.

6. A decision is half the work. The act itself does the most.

7. Absolutely not. If I decide to do my homework and watch TV instead, what will happen? See #6 answer.

8. Accepting Christ is a NECCESSITY in salvation. Man's actions, in a part, in prayer, devotion, deeds, etc... manipulates the fact whether he will be saved. For example, salvation can be lost.

9. Another classic Protestant fib. Rejecting free will is to reject some of Catholicism's important doctrines concerning sin and salvation. By believeing this, you make God less God: less merciful.

Edited June 18, 2004 by nikkan_hanil

[the lumberjack]

bumperoo, neighbor!

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Jun 16 2004, 05:12 PM'] Has anyone read Peter Kreeft's essay on Justification by Faith in his book "Fundamentals of the Faith - Essays in Christian Apologetics"

Check it out, and tell me if you think it presents an orthodox interpretation of Catholic soteriology.

[url="http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0027.html"]http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/...ics/ap0027.html[/url] [/quote]
A much better and far more detailed treatment of the differences between the Catholic doctrine of justification and that which arose out of the Reformation schism can be found in the book by Johann Adam Mohler, entitled, [u]Symbolism: Exposition of the Doctrinal Differences between Catholics and Protestants as Evidenced by their Symbolical Writings[/u]. This work gives one of the most indepth treatments of this topic and should be read by anyone who is interested in understanding the reasons for the doctrinal cleavage that occurred in the 16th century.

As a person who was raised in a Protestant Church, I doubt sincerely that my former co-religionists could accept the Tridentine Decree on Justification without repudiating, as I did, certain fundamental presuppositions of the Reformation doctrine, including but not limited to: the concept of imputed righteousness; the separation between justification and sanctification; the reduction of salvation to the non-imputation of sins rather than the [i]theosis[/i] of man by grace; the rejection of the sacraments as signs that actually convey the grace that they signify; the idea that faith is merely a fiducial trust in one's own forgiveness, the rejection of the doctrinal authority of the Magisterium in defining matters of faith, etc. The book by Fr. Mohler covers other topics as well, including the nature of the differences between the Catholic doctrine of original sin and the various Protestant views of that doctrine, the differences between the Catholic view of the sacraments and that of the various Protestant communities, the differences between the Catholic and Protestant understanding of the nature of the Church, and many other topics that I have not included in this brief list. I highly recommend this book.

Edited June 19, 2004 by Apotheoun

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='nikkan_hanil' date='Jun 18 2004, 03:20 PM'] Here sre my answers. They're not perfect, but here's my bit:

1. Nope. Hold fast to sacred tradition. DOnt forget about the Eucharist as well (John 6:47)

2. Faith is faith, whether put to religious means or not. However, faith in some sort of belief or spiritual purpose is what flows from God, but one may find faith in God themselves.

3. Salvation is earned. No one is ever truly saved while still standing on the dirt of the earth.

4. Twas the same lie that stopped Calvin and Puritan doctrine from making perfect sense. The works of the saints are more than enough example to the gateway of heaven.

5. I believe your leaving out "spiritual", my friend.

6. A decision is half the work. The act itself does the most.

7. Absolutely not. If I decide to do my homework and watch TV instead, what will happen? See #6 answer.

8. Accepting Christ is a NECCESSITY in salvation. Man's actions, in a part, in prayer, devotion, deeds, etc... manipulates the fact whether he will be saved. For example, salvation can be lost.

9. Another classic Protestant fib. Rejecting free will is to reject some of Catholicism's important doctrines concerning sin and salvation. By believeing this, you make God less God: less merciful. [/quote]

Nikkan, that post was riddled with so many errors and things badly phrased, I feel sick...this is Pelagianism, not Christianity!

[u]1) Salvation is obtained by faith alone.[/u]

Depends on how you mean 'faith'. If you mean faith in the sense that 1 Cor 13 and James 2:14-26 uses it - intellectual faith divorced from the fruits of grace - hope and charity, then no. But if you mean the whole sh'bang, faith [i]working in love[/i] and [i]sustained by hope[/i], then I think [i]sola fide [/i]is an appropriate way to phrase it.

[u]2) Faith is the free gift of God. It is not merited by anyone.[/u]

Correct, cf. Ephesians 2:8-10 and the entirety of St. Augustine's anti-Pelagian writings. (Unless you are of the Molinist persuasion, but we all know they're wrong )

[u]3) Salavation is therefore both free and unmerited.[/u]

Yes.

[u]4) Works play no part in salvation.[/u]

Depends on what you mean by this. St. Peter tells us to confirm our call and election by doing good works. The Lord himself says that we will be judged according to our works, and St. Paul says (Romans 2:12-16) that according to his Gospel, men who both hear the Law and obey it will be declared righteous (justified). If, however, you mean that we can work our way to heaven by doing good works and expecting God to pay us our due for them, then this is plainly wrong - in fact, it's [i]Pelagianism. [/i]

[u]5) Work includes both physical (ex: manual labor) and
mental (ex: calculating math in the head) faculties.[/u]

Yes.

[u]6) Making a decision is a process of the mental faculties and is thus work.[/u]

It is work, but it is brought about by Gods grace: it is assented to, but you cannot have faith unless God moves in your heart to allow you to do so.

[u]7) Therefore, making a decision to accept the gift of faith is a work.[/u]

See above.

[u]8) Salvation is obtained without acceptance of Christ (a work), thus, man is not
involved in his salvation[/u]
This is where your line of reasoning breaks down. As I said, man can resist the grace offered to allow him to accept Christ.

[u]9) Man does not have free will to chose or reject God;[/u]
Yes, he does, for he may resist grace given to him.

[quote]he is predestined to salvation or damnation. [/quote]

Yes - those whom God has called according to His Purpose will persevere unto final salvation. (cf. Romans 8:29-31)

Edited June 19, 2004 by ICTHUS

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Jun 19 2004, 10:30 AM'][quote]he is predestined to salvation or damnation.[/quote]
Yes - those whom God has called according to His Purpose will persevere unto final salvation. (cf. Romans 8:29-31)[/quote]
Yes and no. Some men are predestined to grace and glory, and they shall be saved, but God positively predestines no one for damnation, He only permits them to be lost. As the Council of Quiersy defined, ". . . that certain ones are saved, is the gift of the One [i.e., God] who saves; that certain ones perish, however, is the deserved punishment of those who perish." [Deferrari, [u]The Sources of Catholic Dogma[/u], page 127] In other words, those that are saved are saved by the grace of God, their free wills under the impulse of grace cooperating with God's grace in acheiving their own salvation; while those who are damned, are damned through own fault, and thus they have no one to blame but themselves. To hold that God positively wills the damnation of some men is to fall into the heresy of Calvinism. No Catholic may hold what Calvin declared to be the case, that is, that predestination is "God's eternal decree by which He compacted with Himself what He willed to become of each man. For all are not created in equal condition; rather, eternal life is foreordained for some, eternal damnation for others. Therefore, as any man has been created to one or the other of these ends, we speak of him as predestined to life or to death." [John Calvin, [u]The Institutes of the Christian Religion[/u], book III, chap. 21, no. 5] In reference to Romans 8:28-31, while prescinding from the arguments of the various schools of thought on predestination, Fr. Prat indicates that, in interpreting St. Paul's thought, based on the Greek syntactical structure of the text of Romans 8 itself, ". . . the most faithful possible agrees with the general opinion of the Greek and Latin Fathers. All, with the exception of St. Augustine in his second thoughts, are agreed on the three following points: prescience, which is essentially an intellectual act, precedes predestination and directs it, the just not being foreknown because they are predestinated, but rather predestinated because they have been foreknown. Predestination is an act of the consequent will of God; and in the text of St. Paul it has reference to the gift of efficacious grace, and directly to the bestowal of celestial glory. In this same text the words, [i]foreknown[/i], [i]predestinated[/i], [i]called[/i], and [i]justified[/i], and very likely [i]glorified[/i] also, designate the same persons, the friends of God, Christians whose faith is enlivened by charity." [Fr. Fernand Prat, [u]The Theology of St. Paul[/u], volume 1, page 247]

Edited June 19, 2004 by Apotheoun

[ICTHUS]

[quote]Yes and no. Some men are predestined to grace and glory, and they shall be saved, but God positively predestines no one for damnation, He only permits them to be lost. [/quote] Of course. I wasn't espousing Double Predestination, and I'm sorry if I gave that impression.

[Dave]

It would also be helpful to remember that many are called, but few are chosen.