DojoGrant Posted June 16, 2004 Author Share Posted June 16, 2004 (edited) [quote name='RandomProddy' date='Jun 16 2004, 01:40 PM'] Not so sure about Luther, but Calvin is the one that sticks out in this particular subject. [/quote] Read Luther's "Bondage of the Will," a rebuttal to Erasmus' "Freedom of the Will." Luther even commends Erasmus for recognizing that it is the lack of free will that is at the heart of his theology. Edited June 16, 2004 by DojoGrant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JeffCR07 Posted June 16, 2004 Share Posted June 16, 2004 dojo, I understand your point, but in order to be true to the Magisterium, I think it is necessary to make sure that everyone understands that it is not a very straightforward issue. The only really short answer I can give is the following: Eternal life cannot be "earned" by our works, nor can it be "merited" by them. However: Faith and works are absolutely intertwined. They cannot be seperated. Faith is expressed in works, and works give truth to faith. A man who is "saved by faith" will be a man of good works. Period The works of a man are like a mirror into his soul, and a reflection of his faith. This is the problem that the once-saved-always-saved christians fall into: They would argue that no sin, regardless of how grevious, can remove a person from God's Grace once he is in to. So, to them, a man who has been "saved" can, in his dying breath, spit on the face of Christ and blaspheme against the Holy Spirit and, because he was once saved, he remains saved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
voiciblanche Posted June 16, 2004 Share Posted June 16, 2004 [quote name='DojoGrant' date='Jun 16 2004, 12:06 PM'] 4) Works play no part in salvation. [/quote] I don't agree with you right here, and here's why. I could be wrong, but this is what I have been told. I'd appreciate feedback and possible corrections, too, because this is what I've been taught in a Catholic school and I'd like to know if it's wrong. Ephesians 2:8-9 says that we are "saved by grace, through faith, and it is not a result of works, lest none can boast." However, it also says, sometimes in verses eight and nine, sometimes in ten, that we are "saved by grace, through faith, [i]acted out in works."[/i] Now, why would works have anything to do with it? Our works actually play a huge part in our salvation - if my "works" are mortal sins, I [i]have[/i] no salvation if I don't Confess them. If my works are venial sins, they hinder my relationship with God and make me weak to temptation to commit mortal sins, and therefore hinder my chance at salvation. If my works are good works, perhaps one of the Corporal Works of Mercy, then they will [i]not[/i] create my salvation, because I am not saved through grace. It is said that good works can shorten our time in Purgatory. (I remember this, but I don't have a resource on hand - sorry.) So, in conclusion, our works do not [i]make[/i] our salvation, but they can [i]break[/i] it. They do play a part in salvation, even if we are saved by grace and not works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DojoGrant Posted June 16, 2004 Author Share Posted June 16, 2004 voiciblanche, Again, I'm not writing this from a Catholic perspective. This is what a non-Catholic would say. They would say their salvation involves no works of man, that it is purely of God without human cooperation. I am not representing the Catholic belief, but am attempting to show, using their own theology, the logical conclusion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
voiciblanche Posted June 16, 2004 Share Posted June 16, 2004 (edited) Okay. Sorry - I'd typed that up before reading the rest of the thread. But at least now I know I'm not terribly, terribly wrong. Edited June 16, 2004 by voiciblanche Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DojoGrant Posted June 16, 2004 Author Share Posted June 16, 2004 It's cool. Sometimes I don't communicate my thoughts clearly. I type just a little slower than I think, so sometimes chunks of thought get left out of the text. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JeffCR07 Posted June 16, 2004 Share Posted June 16, 2004 hahaha, its a common disease that plagues us. I'll be halfway done something, then realise that someone else has already said the majority of what I was going to say. lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the lumberjack Posted June 16, 2004 Share Posted June 16, 2004 [quote name='JeffCR07' date='Jun 16 2004, 12:53 PM'] However: Faith and works are absolutely intertwined. They cannot be seperated. Faith is expressed in works, and works give truth to faith. A man who is "saved by faith" will be a man of good works. Period [/quote] Amen. [quote]They would argue that no sin, regardless of how grevious, can remove a person from God's Grace once he is in to. So, to them, a man who has been "saved" can, in his dying breath, spit on the face of Christ and blaspheme against the Holy Spirit and, because he was once saved, he remains saved.[/quote] but this...I can't see eye to eye with... a Christian would not take liberty to sin in such a manner just because one is saved. Freedom in Christ...not Freedom thru Christ. where sin abounds, grace abounds much more...does this mean that we should continue in sin? God forbid. God bless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DojoGrant Posted June 16, 2004 Author Share Posted June 16, 2004 Lumberjack, Do you disagree with the logic of what I wrote? If so, please be detailed and point it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the lumberjack Posted June 16, 2004 Share Posted June 16, 2004 it may take a while...but I'll try... peace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
voiciblanche Posted June 16, 2004 Share Posted June 16, 2004 (edited) Lumberjack, Are you often disgusted with us? I've noticed the green about-to-vomit emoticon in the majority of your posts. I don't mean to be uncharitable; just wondering. Edited June 16, 2004 by voiciblanche Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JeffCR07 Posted June 16, 2004 Share Posted June 16, 2004 Lumberjack, ultimately, we are saying the same thing, as many Protestants have come to believe. Martin Luther said something along the lines of "Go and sin, and sin boldly, but more boldly assert your faith that no amount of fornication or greed, even if we sin 1000 times a day, can seperate us from the Lamb of God" (not exactly right, I cant remember what book or letter he said it in). Most Protestants today can't justify a quote like that, and, when it all comes down to it, we really ARE saying much the same thing: [quote]a Christian would not take liberty to sin in such a manner just because one is saved[/quote] I agree. Thus only one who [i]is not saved[/i] could do such a thing as spit in the face of Christ or curse the name of the Holy Spirit. But then what about someone who spits in Christ's face, curses the Holy Spirit, and later confesses the terrible thing that they have done as being truly evil, and completely seperate from God's will? Well, they are saved. But, again, what if they do it in their dying breath? As you said, a true Christian could never do such a thing. And so, Catholics believe that there ARE sins that revoke our communion with Christ, and, if we are truly contrite and seek to rectify the wrong that we have done, we can be saved again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quietfire Posted June 16, 2004 Share Posted June 16, 2004 [quote]They would argue that no sin, regardless of how grevious, can remove a person from God's Grace once he is in to. So, to them, a man who has been "saved" can, in his dying breath, spit on the face of Christ and blaspheme against the Holy Spirit and, because he was once saved, he remains saved.[/quote] That would be a sin against the Holy Spirit, and would not be forgiven. There is no logic (or sanity) in that statement. [quote]I was talking to Fr Pontifex the other week and he said that grace is a constant thing. It is not something that gets poured upon you at one or more points in your life. So, God is constantly pouring His grace upon us. In our free will we choose to accept this grace or reject it therefore making it a work. Is this right?[/quote] I totally agree with that, but again, I am still learning. It makes perfect sense, God is not a water faucet, who turns it on and off. Refuse it or accept it, the choice is ours. Peace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTHUS Posted June 16, 2004 Share Posted June 16, 2004 Has anyone read Peter Kreeft's essay on Justification by Faith in his book "Fundamentals of the Faith - Essays in Christian Apologetics" Check it out, and tell me if you think it presents an orthodox interpretation of Catholic soteriology. [url="http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0027.html"]http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/...ics/ap0027.html[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mary's Knight, La Posted June 17, 2004 Share Posted June 17, 2004 *this is somewhat off topic* hey lumberjack PM me with whether i interpreted what you said you make a very important distinction of the saved having freedom in Christ (e.g. in some way limiting themselves to what He wills) as opposed to having freedom through Christ (e.g. pass through the door way and whatever you can access is fair game) if i understand both you and Catholic theology we very much agree on this. Here's an issue i'd like you to answer: if someone were saved and then acted out of Christ (out of or contrary to His will) does that mean 1. they were never *saved* in the first place as in if they died they wouldn't have go to heaven (note here i mean before the act) 2. they were saved before the act but now are not or 3 they were saved before the act and remain saved during and afterwards. I ask this because usually when questioning non-catholics about free will the only answer i get is a saved person wouldn't do that bringing up a 4th possibility of once being saved a person loses a part of their will that would allow them to act out of Christ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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