Syrian Refugee Crisis

[Benedictus]

Countries like Saudi Arabia, Iran, Russia and the UAE need to do loads more than they currently are. These countries have the space and the wealth to deal with the situation. They, as is so often the case, don't have the will.

There also should have been quicker responses to the crisis and an assessment about whether there could have been more refugee camps created under the control of the UN, located within safe pockets of Syria or at the borders. This could have dealt with some of the refugee issue rather than spreading it out across loads of countries and creating a mess.

Germany was also too quick to change course and encorage refugee migration when it didn't have EU agreement on that policy, especially as it meant people crossing the borders of other countries, without clearance, to reach Germany.

Politically and economically this has come at a bad time. The Euro is hard hit and the countries, especially Greece, are suffering. The unemployment and cuts in pensions and services doesn't create an environment of willingness or openess to funding or dealing with the issues of refugees. The country hopping of some migrants has also angered many people as they believe such actions indicate migrants are abusing the crisis to seek out economic opportunity, not simply a place of safety as a refugee. This is an angle that has been highlighted many times regarding the migrants pitched in France trying to cross to the UK, often disrupting transport services and intimidating passengers and drivers as they do so.

The political angle concerns many people too -  right wing parties have been coming to power across Europe, or at least growing in support, for the last few years, Many of these parties want cuts to social welfare, services and support as a means to discourage migrant movement. This only serves to increase the disdain some people feel towards immigrants, often pushed on by the media. The EU is also uneasy as the UK will be holding a national vote in the next year or so on its EU membership. I suspect people will vote to leave and that will, at least in part, will be influenced by the current problems.

The poltical parties have also contributed to the problem as they've all tried to ignore immigration in terms of policy for years, festering discontent. There have been influxes of migration across Europe for some time and the cultural, religious and social instability unnerves many people. Add in the reality of terrorism, fundamentalism (the number of hard sects and conservative religious dress, especially among women) and fear of change and you end up with a hostile situation within many communities. The perception of a Muslim influx adds to the discontent, even though a good proporation may well be Christians and others.

I think there's also a security concern that some of the people crossing the borders will do so in order to navigate to countries to cause terrorism or political/social discord. The countries aren't vetting, processing or keeping control of who is crossing border controls early enough (if they try then the press portrays it badly). It's likely that ISIS or similar will use the situation to cross borders or transport weapons. I doubt the secret services can tackle the situation fast enough.

Many of the refugees seem to be young men and I think, at least as a first step, women and children should be considered first. I don't know why these men aren't helping to defend the country or work with local countries to push back insurgents. God help the elderly and any women and children they've left behind who are being abused and killed by crazies in their own homelands.

 

Edited September 21, 2015 by Benedictus

[Ice_nine]

However, what we are not seeing in the press very much is the fact that perhaps the majority of those seeking asylum are unaccompanied young men of military age. .

I've seen this in alternative right-wing media. I have a friends who loves to post such things. My question is, is it true? Are young men really disproportionately represented among refugees? Much of your sentiment hinges upon whether this is a fact, fiction, or a red herring.

but the men, apparently, like the idea of getting on benefits in Europe better apparently.

Well, if I had to weigh whether I'd like getting state benefits or fighting a bloody war and risking my own life and the lives of my family (esp if those men have daughters) I might take the benefits. (Must be my lack of a y chromosome). You may look down on men that just want to get the hell away from vicious men who have commandeered western military equipment and who make sexual slaves out of young girls, but if you're living a relatively comfy life in a first world country, and I'm guessing you are, your condescension doesn't mean carp.

Economic security is deeply, deeply connected to physical and social security. That's part of the reason people chase after it. Rich people are by and large pretty good at not getting their guts shot out and their heads chopped off.

I've heard from soldiers who fought in Iraq that the Iraqi army and police, trained at great expense to the United States, lay down their arms and flee at the first sign of trouble; we may presume that the culturally similar Syrians are doing the same thing.

Well, maybe the US shouldn't have done that. We've been arming rebel groups and propping up puppet governments for some decades now, and it's not like we've ever had disastrous consequences from that.

But lol are you implying that cowardice (in fleeing from battle) is a feature of Arab culture? That's funny.

This leads to my second issue: why Europe? Already there are refugee camps dotting Jordan, Lebanon, and Turkey, with most of the financial support for them coming from the UN and from Western countries. European countries are quite culturally dissimilar, but places like Saudi Arabia and the Gulf States are not, and they're not taking their co-religionists in.

I love that parable where the Samaritan told the half-dead guy that he should wait for a fellow Jew to come around.

Here's the thing. I always here people going on and on about how Catholicism (or Christianity) is the best truest religion and is the greatest contributor to culture, which is all well and good. But if you purport to be the greatest than you can not whine about "well how come other people/countries won't do it?!" Well, they're not Christian. They're not supposed to have that Christian ethos of self-effacing and otherwise stupid, dangerous love of all mankind esp the most vulnerable. It doesn't mean anything to me what the Saudis are doing. They follow Muhammad, not Christ. We follow Christ and we (if you're American) live in a country that claims itself to be the greatest in the world. Being self-interested is smart in a survival sense, and it's natural in the sense that we all gravitate towards it, but I don't think it's Christian. Whether you apply it to a person or a nation, self-interest at the expense of the least of these, I jsut don't see an endorsement from Jesus of Nazareth.

 I'm all for welcoming immigrants IF they are able to make a contribution to a society and IF they have relatively similar values to those of the nation they wish to enter . . . I've been following the situation in Hungary for a while, where the Orban government has been endeavouring to stress the distinctly Christian character of the Hungarian people in the face of EU hostility for a long time. Long a bulwark of Europe against the Ottomans, Hungary is now stressing in the face of the mass migration threatening to overburden both it and its neighbours, completely change their demographics, and de-Christianize Europe quite a bit further

This seems fair, but no matter how hard you fight it immigration is constant and dynamic and will always been changing cultural values. Plus Europe is already de-Christianized dude. As far as I understand much of the growth of Christianity has shifted to Asia and Africa.

Arian Goths

I'm not familiar.

As far as Western policy in the Middle East goes, history will likely remember it as a policy built upon a stupidity so monumental that it baffles the imagination. From Carter's betrayal of the Shah to Bush the Elder's coalition against the country that was the hedge against the Iranian Shiites to Bush the Younger and Obama's support for the "Arab Spring" overthrowing countries that might be despotic but are at least stable, we've opened a Pandora's box of trouble in the Middle East that will take decades to resolve itself. (So if we want to house refugees anywhere, maybe we should do it on George W Bush's ranch or in the summer homes of our various Senators and Congressmen?)

At least we agree on something.

[KnightofChrist]

 

I've seen this in alternative right-wing media. I have a friends who loves to post such things. My question is, is it true? Are young men really disproportionately represented among refugees? Much of your sentiment hinges upon whether this is a fact, fiction, or a red herring.

Whatever-wing media should be questioned with skepticism. They all have a bias and often always have an agenda. Anyway it would seem logical that most are young men. It's a heck of a trek to walk, it would be really hard for most older persons to make it and the same would be true for children. Also, I've noticed most of the images of the refugees, wide angle shots as opposed to close ups, visually show a larger number of young men.  It would just make sense if there was a higher number of men making the long journey since young men are physically more capable of making it.

Edited September 22, 2015 by KnightofChrist

[Didacus]

Whatever-wing media should be questioned with skepticism. They all have a bias and often always have an agenda. Anyway it would seem logical that most are young men. It's a heck of a trek to walk, it would be really hard for most older persons to make it and the same would be true for children. Also, I've noticed most of the images of the refugees, wide angle shots as opposed to close ups, visually show a larger number of young men.  It would just make sense if there was a higher number of men making the long journey since young men are physically more capable of making it.

This changes nothing. Or am I missing something? The strongest amongst the Syrians are the ones fleeing while they should be defending the ones they left behind - these young men are not the most vulnerable or in need of help and it would be expected that they at least help themselves if not be able to help others.  

[bardegaulois]

We make it a point to speak for the voiceless, to defend the most vulnerable in society--and these young men, who might have made a difference, have abandoned the most vulnerable in their society to a barbarism so atrocious that it should baffle even the natural conscience. We can be appalled at Bowe Bergdahl for deserting and abandoning his comrades in arms, leading to the deaths of six soldiers searching for him; we call be appalled at Francesco Schettino for abandoning the ship he skippered after wrecking before bringing all passengers to safety, leading to the deaths of 32; but we cannot be appalled at these Syrian men for abandoning their own country and kindred when there is work they might have done to preserve it, leading to the continuation of a war and thousands of deaths of innocents?

Ice Nine, this all brings up the issue of self-interest as well, and how we'd be acting contrary to prudence if we didn't demonstrate some. I'm always reminded of how airplane security demonstrations, you are exhorted to put on your own oxygen mask first before helping the child in the seat next to you. At first, that might seem selfish, but think about the reason this is so. If you pass out while fumbling to put a mask on a frightened child, then both of you are gone. However, if you put your mask on first, then help the child, both of you are preserved. You're preserving yourself, but you're doing so in order that you may be of service to others. There are times when one will have to fall on the grenade in order to save the squad or make some other selfless sacrifice when that is the only option available, but this isn't one of them. In most instances, not preserving yourself would be foolish, but not helping others thereafter would be selfish.

So, we can accept that, so long as we are able to offer some aid, our charitable duties require us to. But let's not get lured into the false dichotomy of either giving migrants free rein in our countries or doing nothing. You've likely noticed that politicians love to frame issues like this, when in reality, there are always other, more prudent ways to go about this. Orban, for instance, has called on the EU to increase aid to Syria's neighbours that host many refugee camps to those ends. On the personal end, gifts to the Red Cross or to Caritas can go a long way. If the migrants will pour out bottled water because it came from a box with a red cross on it, then we'd have to assume that they weren't really needy in the first place.

This is quite a bit more prudent than bringing in large populations of foreigners who will not share your nation's values. Multiculturalism has already, to my mind, led to far more racism, clannishness, and nativism than existed before it became official policy. Already tensions in some communities are at boiling points, and anything that would lead to the tension to simmer over (whether it's the migrants or the nativists who start it), with disastrous consequences, has not shown foresight and thus ought to render himself ineligible to take on any position of social responsibility. You're right, for all of Mr Orban's talk, Europe is largely secularized. So are we going to expect largely secularized Europeans to act like Catholics?

Just a few thoughts to consider...

[Didacus]

Tolerance of other cultures should not be given at the sacrifice of our own.  

[Ice_nine]

@Didacus what parts of our culture are you so eager to preserve? I'm guessing those parts are most likely already dead.

 

@bardegaulois Back to the "real men should stay and fight" thing. Lots of times men in war-torn areas head out to scout a new home for their families to follow after. You think these swaths of men just don't give a you-know-what about their home and their families? What a charitable assumption to make about them. I assume it's a mixed bag. Some of them are probably cowards. Some of them probably didn't want to leave everything they knew but found this to be the best possible option on a short list of crappy options. I just find it icky to make sweeping generalizations about these people and their motivations.

I believe Western powers should be held responsible for the messes we've created in this world. There are some posters here that consider imperialism an example of our benevolence to the rest of the benighted world, which is an attitude I find disgusting, who would disagree with me but the US is in large part responsible for the De-stabilization of the ME.  You seem to more or less agree with this no? But in that case we cannot be absolved of our responsibilities by playing the "we must preserve our culture" card when, historically and in the present, we've had ZERO problem rolling in on other nations and destroying their culture while foisting our beliefs and practices onto them. At some point we will have to pay the piper. Lots of our wealth is built off the backs of slaves and a brutal imperial conquest

And no I don't expect secular nations to behave like Christians but I expect people who claim to be Christian to behave like Christians at least some of the time. Just pay a little lip service to the poor at least even if you're not ready to take them into your home.

 

[bardegaulois]

 

And no I don't expect secular nations to behave like Christians but I expect people who claim to be Christian to behave like Christians at least some of the time. Just pay a little lip service to the poor at least even if you're not ready to take them into your home.

 

And that's why I say: "Orban, for instance, has called on the EU to increase aid to Syria's neighbours that host many refugee camps to those ends. On the personal end, gifts to the Red Cross or to Caritas can go a long way. If the migrants will pour out bottled water because it came from a box with a red cross on it, then we'd have to assume that they weren't really needy in the first place."

[Didacus]

Right - our culture is probably dead so let's give up and become muslims.

OK

Ice - what do you think about the refugees pouring water to the ground because the water bottles were given from crates marked with the hateful sign of the red cross?

[Ice_nine]

@Didacus

I don't feel good about it. I wonder what their motivations are. Tensions are certainly high and as I've said before I don't think all the refugees are angels.

[Didacus]

@Didacus

I don't feel good about it. I wonder what their motivations are. Tensions are certainly high and as I've said before I don't think all the refugees are angels.

if we invite such massive amounts of people in our midst who would spit upon our very generosity so blatantly we then deserve to lose our christian heritage

God is Love but He is also Wisdom. Love that is blind and without intelligence is not a complete picture of God - love your neighbor, but don't be stupid about is either. Don't go looking for misery for miserie's sake. 

 

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

Thing is these people are being driven into the west and are now rioting in europe. Ishmael will rule with a sword. So Yaweh delivers us into the hands of our enemies. This situation can only drive people back into the churches. And we must open our arms to them and teach them what we know and be charitable in word and deed, we must body build, they all left anyway because we stopped body building and lifting up the weak amongst our brothers and sisters in christ, it is our fault, believe it or not that God has had to use his wrath to have us pray and obey his holy word. We must seek the weak in our communities and help Jesus make them strong not only evangelise those whom are of unbelief though we must do that also. All through the old testament Gods wrath was released upon the israelites for straying. Look at all this from a biblical perspective, repent and believe in the good news.

 

Onward christian souls.

Jesus iz LORD!

P.s. The disciples fell asleep in the garden of ghetsemene and st peter denied jesus 3 times. Lets stay awake and this time around pray sincerely to not fall asleep!

Edited September 25, 2015 by Tab'le De'Bah-Rye

[StMichael]

The sad part about all of this, is that the majority seeking entry are 18-30 year old non-Syrian men. Not women with little babies or families.

The story of that beautiful little boy found dead on the beach, he was living in Turkey with his Mom, Dad & sibling. Dad saw this rush to Europe (all seeking to get to the best welfare state) as great cover for them to enter. Dad had a job, was getting money from his sister in Canada and ended up wiping out his entire family.

This is an invasion. 

 

[Didacus]

The sad part about all of this, is that the majority seeking entry are 18-30 year old non-Syrian men. Not women with little babies or families.

The story of that beautiful little boy found dead on the beach, he was living in Turkey with his Mom, Dad & sibling. Dad saw this rush to Europe (all seeking to get to the best welfare state) as great cover for them to enter. Dad had a job, was getting money from his sister in Canada and ended up wiping out his entire family.

This is an invasion. 

 

Who in their right mind would risk the very lives of family and their children for a little money!?

 

I won't say this is an invasion, because that would make me a racist...

[bardegaulois]

The sad part about all of this, is that the majority seeking entry are 18-30 year old non-Syrian men. Not women with little babies or families.

The story of that beautiful little boy found dead on the beach, he was living in Turkey with his Mom, Dad & sibling. Dad saw this rush to Europe (all seeking to get to the best welfare state) as great cover for them to enter. Dad had a job, was getting money from his sister in Canada and ended up wiping out his entire family.

This is an invasion. 

 

An invited invasion, moreover. I can't help but see parallels to the situation of the Gothic refugee crisis of 376: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothic_War_(376–382). As any historian knows, that led to the Sack of Rome of 410 in a generation's time. Considering the involvement of the land of Dacia and of the Huns, is it any wonder that this lesson is not lost on Hungary? Those who forget history...