A Battered Faith

[Budge]

Brother Adam, its just more then one prayer. Maybe you should pay a visit to a good Christian church--Baptist or other denomination. There is a lot more expected then just saying the sinners prayer and then saying Im done. In my church, much more is expected then just one 45 minute Mass on Sunday morning and showing up for confession every now and then. Church 3 times a week, service, ministries etc.

People responded to this writing--A BATTER FAITH subject of this thread

Here is what they were saying

[url="http://www.illinoisleader.com/letters/lettersview.asp?c=16679"]http://www.illinoisleader.com/letters/lett...iew.asp?c=16679[/url]

[b]This stuff ISNT COMING OUT OF A VACUMN FOLKS![/b]

[quote]On a regular basis, some of the Vatican’s top religious leaders unleash printed and verbal barrages at Americans; accusing American society as being the problem. I have difficulty accepting that the present pope is all so holy and pious as long as his top aides are allowed to assault the American society. In case they haven’t noticed, they are also insulting our intelligence by thinking their ranting is accepted by the American public.


[b]While trying to assert moral authority, the Catholic Church is refusing to accept responsibility for their sins and crimes. They instead try to place the blame for their sins and crimes on their victims. [/b]This is taking place at the upper levels of the church and cannot be blamed on the failings of a limited number of priests. They seem to be more concerned by their power and wealth than they are concerned by suffering of the victims. Truth, honesty, morality and justice do not appear to be in their vocabulary.


My Missal has been misplaced, or more likely, disposed of.[b] Until the church makes a major shift toward honesty and justice, I have no longing to try and retrieve it. Even if the church regained moral bearings I would very wary of them.[/b] Once lost, a leadership role is difficult to attain. [/quote]

and

[quote]Until the recent announcement that Bernard Law had been given a rich sinecure in Rome, I thought that all this was behind me.[b] The Cardinal, still eligible to become the successor to John Paul, has been brought out of comfortable exile, to be brandished by the Papacy in front of the Catholics in Boston and elsewhere as some sort of nightmare inducing sock puppet. This is what our Church leaders think of us.[/b]

Reform, hell. The Curia isn’t ready for reform.

We are hectored and lectured from Rome's pulpit and told in effect, we must reform, and in the meantime keep the money flowing. Rome has depended and continues to depend on the generosity of the American Church.

And now we can recall that before Bernard Law was shipped overseas, the red hatted egotist under whose aegis the scandal started and burgeoned in New England, met in Dallas in solemn conclave with the other prelates from American sees. [b]The other cardinals did neither shun the principal actor nor criticize the actions in Boston under the leadership provided by Law. Gave new meaning to the phrase Law and Ordure, it did. Broken bodies, broken spirits and broken hearts were meant to be cured by Papal justice. And now we see what that justice was.[/b]

It is not yet over.[/quote]

SERIOUSLY PEOPLE ARE SEEING THE EVIL FOR WHAT IT IS

[quote]In fourteen years of Catholic religion and theology instruction I received, I heard nothing that placed the religious on such a plane that they were immune to the laws of God and of man. [b]These “holy men” have their heads so high in the clouds that they can no longer discern what is right and what is wrong. Could it be that Satan has penetrated the highest levels of the Catholic Church?[/b][/quote]

The public is speaking and they agree with Connie Lynne.

[cmotherofpirl]

Brother Adam is converting out of a good Baptist Church

[Aloysius]

aha! popular opinion! that's what Jesus said we should follow right? i better leave the Church!

errr... wait, no He told us to follow the APOSTLES. I guess i should stay whew, that was a close call.

pAx

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Jun 16 2004, 10:25 PM'] Brother Adam is converting out of a good Baptist Church [/quote]
Yep. Spent three years going to Sunday morning, Sunday School, Sunday evening, and Wednesday night Bible Study.

And, yep, it is as simple as a prayer. The Great Divide from death to new life in the Baptist Church (and other corporate Churches) is crossed when someone says a prayer and accepts Jesus Christ into their heart as their Personal Savior. When that person is done with that prayer their soul is secure forever and ever, no matter what.

That, my friend, is easy believism and offers no assurance of salvation.

[daugher-of-Mary]

Budge, no one here is denying that there are bad people in the Church. The firey St. Catherine of Sienna even said that "the streets of hell are lined with the skulls of Bishops and priests." :ph34r: But the Truth does not and will not change! There is corruption in any Protestant denomination (active homosexuality, female ordination, abortion, contraception...just look, it's all been allowed by one denomination or another), but the Church stands firm. Catholicism hasn't changed in 2000 years and She is certainly not about to change now, despite what the media predicts.

[Budge]

[quote]errr... wait, no He told us to follow the APOSTLES. I guess i should stay whew, that was a close call.[/quote]

You seriously expect me to believe that Mahoney and pals are todays apostles? Im sorry apostolic succession in the Catholic Church is a myth.

No Apostles would be forwarding this interfaith nonsense.

{quote]Yep. Spent three years going to Sunday morning, Sunday School, Sunday evening, and Wednesday night Bible Study.

And, yep, it is as simple as a prayer. The Great Divide from death to new life in the Baptist Church (and other corporate Churches) is crossed when someone says a prayer and accepts Jesus Christ into their heart as their Personal Savior. When that person is done with that prayer their soul is secure forever and ever, no matter what.

That, my friend, is easy believism and offers no assurance of salvation. [/quote]


Thats not what my Baptist church teaches, its far more then a prayer. Easy believism is a Catholic term that is a misrepresentation. Perhaps all the rituals, incense and fancy stain glass is drawing you in. The Catholic church is very sensual--appeals to the senses. Seriously if you believed yourself to be saved...wasnt Jesus enough? Once one is truly saved in Jesus, they would never look to a church to save them. That would include any denomination. I know every Baptist church tommorow disappeared, I would still be in Christ. Catholics are out of luck should there be a war and there are no priests available to do sacraments. What if something happened to Rome? You all look to the church more then Christ and that is worrisome. Its all about Christ, its not about doing religious rituals.

You could have been in a wayward Baptist church, extremely liberal one that didnt preach the Word. Ill admit there are Baptist churches that dont do the job.

[b]I do not understand how ANYONE could trade the true and beautiful and pure GOSPEL OF GRACE with Christs enduring love for the Catholic gospel of fear, Purgatory, legalisms and endless rituals and eternal INSECURITY.[/b]

[Justified Saint]

Well it is not like there is any consistency from one Protestant church to another.

It really isn't much different, Protestantism is strictly a book religion so if we are going to suppose that Rome fell off the face of the earth and every priest disappeared we might as well make the Bible disappear too. Catholics know though that a book doesn't save you. The Catholic Church though is just as much spiritual and invisible as it is physical.

There is not "endless ritual" in Catholicism but rather the rich biblical understanding of covenants, oaths, and its sacramental signs.

[IcePrincessKRS]

[quote name='Budge' date='Jun 16 2004, 11:50 PM']

[b]I do not understand how ANYONE could trade the true and beautiful and pure GOSPEL OF GRACE with Christs enduring love for the Catholic gospel of fear, Purgatory, legalisms and endless rituals and eternal INSECURITY.[/b] [/quote]
Some of your comments, and especially this closing remark of yours makes me wonder if you have read the phorum guidelines Budge? If you have not I suggest you do so.

[url="http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?act=boardrules"]http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?act=boardrules[/url]

[crusader1234]

Just thought I'd make it easier for him:

[quote]Negative Criticism of Other Religions- a post or comment that negatively criticizes (as opposed to constructively criticizes) a different religion in a way that is harmful to open ecumenical dialogue.
[/quote]

[Brother Adam]

[quote]Im sorry apostolic succession in the Catholic Church is a myth. [/quote]

Yet you can't prove it. Stephen Ray in Upon this Rock does an excellent job.

[quote]Thats not what my Baptist church teaches, its far more then a prayer[/quote]

Read "Basic Theology" by Charles Ryrie before you try to debate me on this. Again, Baptists teach that salvation comes through "Accepting Jesus Christ as your personal Savior". This comes through "The Believer's Prayer" at the end of an altar call. The prayer involves the acknowledgement of the person as a sinner, the repentance of sin, and the asking of Jesus to enter ones heart. If you're Baptist Church does not teach this, it is not historically Baptist.

[quote]Seriously if you believed yourself to be saved...wasnt Jesus enough? Once one is truly saved in Jesus, they would never look to a church to save them.[/quote]

You seriously misunderstand the theology of the Church. People have been being saved through the Church since 33 AD. The first occurrence is at Peter's preaching in Acts. Salvation, historically comes through oral preaching, as until this century the majority of the world was illiterate.

[quote]What if something happened to Rome?[/quote]

Would the USA cease to exist if terrorists blew up Washington DC?

[quote]You all look to the church more then Christ and that is worrisome[/quote]

I'm calling you on this one. Prove it.

[quote]Its all about Christ, its not about doing religious rituals. [/quote]

You ignore oral tradition for your buffet style Christianity. Qualify "It is all about Christ" what is all about Christ?

[quote]You could have been in a wayward Baptist church, extremely liberal one that didnt preach the Word. Ill admit there are Baptist churches that dont do the job. [/quote]

Wrong again.

[url="http://www.northparkbaptistchurch.us/"]http://www.northparkbaptistchurch.us/[/url]

I studied for nearly 3 years before becoming a Baptist from the Lutheran Church. I was younger and more arrogant then, but believe me, I am well acquainted with Baptist teaching and history.

[quote]I do not understand how ANYONE could trade the true and beautiful and pure GOSPEL OF GRACE with Christs enduring love for the Catholic gospel of fear, Purgatory, legalisms and endless rituals and eternal INSECURITY.[/quote]

Catholics believe in Salvation by Grace Alone.

Catholic gospel of fear? Qualify yourself.

Purgatory? The purification of sin before the beautific vision? What's the problem there?

Legalism? Does your church have a "Church constitution, or any governing group (Such as deacons) to take care of church business?

Insecurity. Wrong. Catholics have more assurance than baptists or anyone that thinks they can believe in OSAS.

[Kilroy the Ninja]

Since Bruce has yet to respond to my request for topic clarification I am offically closing this thread. If Bruce so chooses, he may open a new thread for whatever topic he intended for this thread.


Pax Christi.

[dUSt]

Oops. Bruce has been permanently banned because of excessive violations of the phorum guidelines. He was warned over 10 times to modify his behavior. At some point, enough is enough. I think that I was extremely fair with him.

Please note that Bruce was never warned because of any particular argument or comment about the Church. Every time he was warned, and the reason for his suspension, was due to [b]personal attacks[/b] on other members of this phorum. Since personal attacks are deleted as soon as possible, I'm sure that the reasoning behind his suspension might be questionable--but let me assure you all that it was warranted.

God bless.

[Justified Saint]

Well, I could always pretend to be Bruce to keep the discussion going.

"You tricksy Catholicsss..."

[Crusader_4]

LOL...."Its all lies...lies i tell you" lol....good old bruce eh