A Battered Faith

[DojoGrant]

[quote name='Bruce S' date='Jun 16 2004, 09:55 AM'] Now I'm a bad guy because I don't post POSITIVE stories on the Catholic Church?

Grin.

Hey, don't tell anyone, ok, I'm a Protestant EX Catholic....shhhh, don't want anyone to know that.

My "job" here, is to present opposing ideas, and to counterbalance the Catholic lovefest and back patting, isn't it?

That IS, what an INTER-faith dialogue forum is for, or silly me, I fogot, this is the Catholic converts in waiting forum? [/quote]
Bruce,

Can you demonstrate where excessive sarcasm is an expression of love? Can you please show me where the point of debate is here? To my knowledge, you posted a news story for the purpose of saying the Catholic Church is dying or some such thing. There is no point of doctrine here; you posted a woman's opinion and then talk about how we're losing members (something you seem to revel in).

I fail to see the solid discussion. I see lots of sarcasm.

[Bruce S]

I guess the OP isn't going to be discussed.

Wonder why?

How about we discuss what the story was about?

Or does that upset everyone too much?

[cmotherofpirl]

Its been discussed its not the topic of the thread.
Stick to the thread.

Edited June 16, 2004 by cmotherofpirl

[DojoGrant]

[quote name='Bruce S' date='Jun 16 2004, 10:00 AM']
Yeah, right, whistle past the graveyard.

The FIRST Reformation saw 1/2 of the worldwide Catholic population escape.

This, the SECOND Reformation, is shaping up to be just as dramatic.

The 'numbers' the Catholic Church 'claims' are just counting those baptisted, without their knowledge, as INFANTS, not those who attend, believe, or practice Catholicism.

Sorry.

It has EVERYTHING to do with the "Truth" you take in barely sentient beings as members, but EVERY one that leaves to become an Evangelical or Pentecostal Christian is an ADULT, making a concientious decision, to OP OUT.

YOU may believe you have the ONLY TRUTH, but a swarm of Catholics doing the EXODUS number, those with firsthand knowledge, do not.

Here, read this, from OUR SUNDAY VISITOR ->
[url="http://world.std.com/~pastoral/whyleave.htm"]http://world.std.com/~pastoral/whyleave.htm[/url] [/quote]
I love your word usage. It highlights how unobjective you are. The Protestants "escaped." This means that they had the Truth?

More people are leaving, you say. This means they have the Truth?

You say we miscount Catholic heads. This means we don't have the Truth?

Then you say "it has everything to do with the Truth." Umm, well, you certainly didn't demonstrate it. People leaving, in max exodus or not, does not mean that they suddenly received the Truth elsewhere. It means they left, for many and various reasons. It is only your spin that they are claiming the Truth not found in the Catholic Church.

No, I see many lost and uncatechized persons leaving for easy-believerism or because they simply don't know what the Church teaches because they were poorly taught and later fed lies about the Church by predators, or they are lazy and never sought out the Truth for themselves as an adult.

Because the Truth is there. It is every person's personal decision to embrace the Truth or not, although I pity those who have not received it through the fault of lax Catholic educators and families.

Again, your argument has nothing to do with the Truth itself.

By the way...you know that Martin Luther denied free will, right?

[Bruce S]

[quote]Our bishops claim an "institutional mind-set" clouded their judgment. They were victims of the times, considering sex crimes diseases to be treated and cured, rather than felonies to be reported and punished. Or were they just protecting their own? Even the most minimally rational citizens know that the rape and molestation of minors has always been considered a crime so unspeakably appalling that perpetrators are often murdered in prison. But not our bishops, who harbored and covered up for these individuals for decades, contaminating and decimating our priesthood, shaming and humiliating our decent and faithful priests.

Meanwhile, lifelong Catholics were alienated, families torn apart; lives were destroyed, hearts broken. [b]Worldly, arrogant bishops fiddled while Rome burned. Confident they were above the law, they artfully dodged prosecutors, abdicated societal obligations, lived in palatial mansions, vacationed in seaside villas, drove fancy cars and wasted untold millions of our hard-earned dollars on lawyers, hush-money, country-club treatment centers and grotesque, monster churches and cathedrals. Our children, teachers, schools and poor urban parishes were callously abandoned; our disabled children were excluded from our elitist Catholic school system.[/b]
[/quote]

Over a billion dollars flushed down a rathole, and still counting.

Now how many parishes are being closed, schools underfunded, and pew catholics being pleaded with, to support ....

[quote]palatial mansions, vacationed in seaside villas, drove fancy cars and wasted untold millions of our hard-earned dollars on lawyers, hush-money, country-club treatment centers and grotesque, monster churches and cathedrals.[/quote]

That really is the topic, isn't it?

And Cardinal Law, with a promotion to the third most important Basilica in the world, with a luxury suite, chef, housekeeper, maids, chauffer, and an annul remuneration reported to be over 130,000 a year.

Promote the ones that made this mess, leave the pew catholics empty parishes, and closed schools.

Edited June 16, 2004 by Bruce S

[DojoGrant]

[quote name='Bruce S' date='Jun 16 2004, 10:04 AM'] I guess the OP isn't going to be discussed.

Wonder why?

How about we discuss what the story was about?

Or does that upset everyone too much? [/quote]
I don't know what OP means, I'm sorry.

And what in the world was the reason for that last statement? That was pure conjecture and ridicule. It was not of love.

[cmotherofpirl]

Love is patient and kind, I remember somebody wrote about that once...

[Apotheoun]

[quote]YOU may believe you have the ONLY TRUTH, but a swarm of Catholics doing the EXODUS number, those with firsthand knowledge, do not.[/quote]

I was a member of the United Methodist Church until my conversion to Catholicism in 1988 (as I said in an earlier post, 1988 was an important year). The Methodist Church had just over 12 million members in 1968, but it now has only 8 to 8.5 million members today. The fact that people change Churches is nothing new. But as a Catholic I trust in the promise of Christ that the "gates of hell shall not prevail against His Church," and that by the grace of God people will continue to come to the fulness of faith found only in Christ's Catholic Church.

[DojoGrant]

Bruce,

I haven't seen anyone deny that we have had worldy bishops. I have no doubt some of them have been corrupted, and I pray for their repentence. I pray daily for holy priests and bishops, and I know that the Church will heal from this in time, and will be stronger from it.

I don't see why one has to take your purely negative attitude and run with it as the only option. The Church isn't dying. It was hurt, and we're in a period of recovery in which we all need to be charitable and open to forgiving and bringing orthodoxy and orthodox education back into the light. We need to not forget these mistakes, but we do not need to dwell on them as if recovery was not an option.

If people wish to leave the Church because they have lost hope, then I certainly pity them, for we are to never lose hope. Bad bishops or not, the faith remains the same. The Eucharist remains the same. God remains the same. I will remain with my God and the Eucharist and will work hard until the storm passes.

You call what we do here "patting ourselves on the back." I call what we're doing here the New Evangelization. We're youth helping other youth, the future of tomorrow, be excited and in love with their Catholic faith so that we can have a promising, hopeful future.

I have hope. You do not. That is the difference between us.

[Bruce S]

[quote]But as a Catholic I trust in the promise of Christ that the "gates of hell shall not prevail against His Church," and that by the grace of God people will continue to come to the fulness of faith found only in Christ's Catholic Church. [/quote]

HIS church isn't the Catholic Church.

It is ALL believers.

At the time that statement was made there was NO denomination, nor even a functioning church in the city of Rome.

The gates of hell, are inside the Catholic Church it is sad to say, my personal opinion is that the Holy Spirit is taking a lot of people safely out of a dangerous situation.

I applaud your decision to leave the Methodists for the Catholic Church, that is certainly your right, and you are to be commended for voting with your feet to where you find a home that suits your beliefs.

Others vote with their feet in other directions.

Best.

[DojoGrant]

[quote name='Bruce S' date='Jun 16 2004, 10:16 AM']
HIS church isn't the Catholic Church.

It is ALL believers.

At the time that statement was made there was NO denomination, nor even a functioning church in the city of Rome.

The gates of hell, are inside the Catholic Church it is sad to say, my personal opinion is that the Holy Spirit is taking a lot of people safely out of a dangerous situation.

I applaud your decision to leave the Methodists for the Catholic Church, that is certainly your right, and you are to be commended for voting with your feet to where you find a home that suits your beliefs.

Others vote with their feet in other directions.

Best. [/quote]
You're right, Bruce. There was no denomination back then. There still isn't. There is but one Church, Christ's Church. It just happened to pick up the moniker of "Catholic" along the way to represent just that, its universality.

There are still no denominations, for Christ's Church can not be split. There is one Church, and it is Catholic.

And I'm glad your "opinion" (your own word) that the gates of hell have entered the Catholic Church is just an opinion. My faith is secure, and I know for a fact that the gates of hell have not prevailed.

Yes, others vote for different directions. But only one direction points to Christ Jesus.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Bruce S' date='Jun 16 2004, 10:16 AM'] The gates of hell, are inside the Catholic Church it is sad to say, my personal opinion is that the Holy Spirit is taking a lot of people safely out of a dangerous situation. [/quote]
Of course I disagree with your offensive remark about the Catholic Church. I would never say that the "gates of hell" are in a Protestant Church, because although I have come to the firm conviction that Protestantism is in error regarding a great many things, I have no doubt that the vast magority of Protestants are sincere in their beliefs. I pray constantly that all Protestants will come to see the errors of the Reformers and return to the Church that their ancestors all belonged to, i.e., the Catholic Church. For it alone is the one true Church of Christ. But I leave that to the will of God, and I trust in His providence and grace.

Edited June 16, 2004 by Apotheoun

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Bruce S' date='Jun 16 2004, 12:16 PM']
HIS church isn't the Catholic Church.

It is ALL believers.

At the time that statement was made there was NO denomination, nor even a functioning church in the city of Rome.

The gates of hell, are inside the Catholic Church it is sad to say, my personal opinion is that the Holy Spirit is taking a lot of people safely out of a dangerous situation.

I applaud your decision to leave the Methodists for the Catholic Church, that is certainly your right, and you are to be commended for voting with your feet to where you find a home that suits your beliefs.

Others vote with their feet in other directions.

Best. [/quote]
Nope.

Jesus said there will be poeple who cry "Lord Lord" and he will say I never knew you.
There was a Church in Rome even before Peter got there to take over.

Remember we conform ourselves to the Church, not find a group that suits our current beliefs.

[1337 k4th0l1x0r]

By your statements, Bruce, evil forces in the world are dwindling. The Catholic Church is losing 'membership' and people are being led by your 'holy spirit.' I bet this is the same spirit that is leading people to accept abortion and homosexual marriage. Let's all praise this secularism! (end sarcasm)

Yes, there are alot of people leaving the church. And my experience with people who are leaving is that most of them are not becoming 'born again' and becoming protestant. They are at best, apathetic, or at worst, extremely bitter about all religion and need to be prayed for. But at the same time the Church needs all of the living Catholics to all become Church Militant. Even Jesus says he will prune the branches that do not bear fruit.

[Paladin D]

[color=red][b]Question Bruce:[/b][/color] [b]If numbers determine truth, does that mean secularistic mentality and belief is truth? Look at our society![/b]