Covering Shoulders

[Ash Wednesday]

In my experience, requesting that shoulders be covered is pretty standard when a church imposes a dress code. I don't think that's asking much. Regardless of how rigid someone may think some dress codes are, I think it should be observed as a sign of reverence and respect. 

[vee]

ugh ya another modesty thread

 

anyway my two cents is that the Catholic Church is not the only religion or the only place one would find a dress code.  For example there are Buddhist temples in Thailand that have dress codes too.  Dress for respect of the situation wherever one is.  Maybe Catholic Churches could have sarongs and shawls to lend out too for those who arent appropriately dressed

 

[puellapaschalis]

Ppl be like:

When abroad dress as they ask you because REZPEKT dontcha know...

...but in a church I'ma dress however the [bleep] I want cuz FREEDOM.

[Lilllabettt]

 

The dress code at my workplace is business casual and I have seen women on many occasions wear sleeveless shirts and it looks totally fine.

Maybe that was me you saw rocking the many sleeveless shirts I own in your business casual workplace.

My workplace has a dress code and it says no nekked arms. I observe that dress code or I find another job. That's the deal. 

 

ugh ya another modesty thread

 

anyway my two cents is that the Catholic Church is not the only religion or the only place one would find a dress code.  For example there are Buddhist temples in Thailand that have dress codes too.  Dress for respect of the situation wherever one is.  Maybe Catholic Churches could have sarongs and shawls to lend out too for those who arent appropriately dressed

when  I was in Cambodia I visited the royal palace. There was a dress code - skirts knee length or lower, shoulders covered, no shorts on men, PERIOD. 

oh the whinging that commenced from the tourists when they were turned away at the door. wahhhh. these people are told before boarding the buses about the dress code but they somehow believe they will be made an exception.

this is 90+ degree heat, dripping wet humidity btw.

 

Edited August 24, 2015 by Lilllabettt

[Lilllabettt]

if you have a problem with dress codes at Church, you should take it up with the Pope:

[Archaeology cat]

if you have a problem with dress codes at Church, you should take it up with the Pope:

I was thinking of that, actually. If my pastor or Bishop said no bare shoulders, I wouldn't have a problem with it. Yes, most of my dresses are sleeveless, but it wouldn't be a problem to pull on a shrug for Mass if needed.

[julianneoflongbeach]

I didn't start this to complain about dress codes. I was actually looking for reasons why shoulders would be considered immodest, particularly from a Catholic perspective. (Thank you MLF for basically being the only person who tried.) Not just more, "Oh, well 'cus it's done and it's done and it's been done and get over it".

 

And, "another modesty thread? " ... Well, don't read it or post in it then.

[Ice_nine]

if you have a problem with dress codes at Church, you should take it up with the Pope:

orange just doesn't look that great on me. I guess I can't visit THAT stupid church.

[Maria_Faustina]

orange just doesn't look that great on me. I guess I can't visit THAT stupid church.

You know, the orange I could live with. It's the midriff-baring style that I just refuse to do. 

[Maria_Faustina]

I didn't start this to complain about dress codes. I was actually looking for reasons why shoulders would be considered immodest, particularly from a Catholic perspective. (Thank you MLF for basically being the only person who tried.) Not just more, "Oh, well 'cus it's done and it's done and it's been done and get over it".

 

And, "another modesty thread? " ... Well, don't read it or post in it then.

 

But seriously though, I get what you're saying. (Or at least I think I do). You seem to be asking for logical, faith-based answers as to why this is a practice--why we do it now, or why it was ever started as a thing at all. (If I'm wrong, correct me!). 

As someone whose personal "modesty dress code" includes not wearing sleeveless tops, I actually had to stop and think about a specific source for my reasoning. I did think of the Vatican visitors dress code, as was mentioned, and also of Marian modesty, as was also mentioned. Pope Pius XI's statement on appropriate dress also came to mind--that's "A dress cannot be decent which is cut deeper than two fingers breath under the pit of the throat; which does not cover the arms at least to the elbows; and scarcely reaches a bit beyond the knees. Furthermore, dresses of transparent materials are improper", if you didn't know. All of those I took into account when deciding what I would and would not wear. Quite frankly, two fingers breath under the pit of the throat is hard to find in a shirt, so I go with "high enough to be noticeably modest when standing and high enough AND flush enough to be modest when bending over too" for my necklines. By noticeably modest, I mean at least two inches above where any cleavage could even BEGIN to show. Hence, I wear a camisole with straps adjusted all the way up pretty much every day!

I know you weren't talking about necklines, but I just wanted to give an example of where I'm coming from other than just with sleeves. I don't wear sleeveless tops/dresses because it's just one more line I don't want to cross. I don't mean that in the sense of sinning; I mean that it simply helps in the elimination process of picking clothes. So, I suppose it's basically a practicality thing for me (within a faith foundation). When I go shopping, I already have my options greatly narrowed down, because too low/too tight/too short/sleeveless/strapless are all pretty much out of the question. (Sleeveless I can wear with a cardigan, so depending on what the item is/if I'll actually wear it enough to be worth having to wear a cardigan with it, cause when it's hot, boy do I want to be able to take off my cardigan). It does make finding clothes a little hard sometimes, but not impossible. For that reason, I treat it as a little sacrifice to make for the Lord. Trust me, there are plenty of super cute neon cut-out body-con club-type dresses that I know I would feel (and probably look) sexy in, but the only one who I would let see that would be my (future) husband, even though sometimes I'm really tempted to say "Screw it, who cares" and just buy/wear the cute backside-emphasizing thing anyway. Because, well, celebrities/everyone else/my sister can do this, so why can't I? I deserve to feel attractive/look hot, don't I? Buuuut in the end, I don't. Even though I may pout at the Lord at little bit. My friends and family know I have this "rule" and they know it's because I'm Catholic. It's a little witness, at least.  

For one more little rational reasoning behind it, like someone said, it's because sleeveless tops/dresses come a lot closer to showing off areas that should be kept more covered. Tank tops/sleeveless dresses, even the nice Talbot's/Chaps/church-y floral Mom kind, still almost always tend to pucker around the armpit area, so as a result I see many bras even in church. They don't even have to be cute bras, seeing them at all is still distracting. Like if a little girl is in front of you during Mass and keeps pulling up her dress to admire her new Barbie underwear. No, it's not sexual or impure at all--in fact, it's probably cute--and she is certainly hardly at fault. It is, however, distracting, and I guess that's the bottom line. Many sleeveless dresses for women also tend to be immodest in the length/neckline area too. I find it's usually better to just avoid them altogether (although the attraction to the cute styles is always there. I love cute clothes, and I will not lie). As far as the distracting aspect again, I also won't wear something to Mass if it is too "flashy", even though it may be modest. I have a nice cotton, pleated, scoopneck dress that is by Maggy London (so business/career nice), and has like, pinks and oranges and greens and leaves and stripes and flowers and all sorts of patterns on it. I love it, but uh, I just want to go to Mass and look nice--not under-dressed, but not over-the-top either--for the Lord, not distract people with my outfit. If I'm wearing a skirt and a cardigan, I know I will look nice, feel pretty and feminine, yet not look out of place. I want people to--if they look at me--think, she must be going to church. And outside of church, I want people to think--if they look at me--she must be a Christian; or to at least view my outfit neutrally, not giving them CAUSE for either extreme ("look how much skin she's showing off" to "look how much she's trying to cover her body"). Because in the end, it is not me they should be looking at, but Him.

Edited August 25, 2015 by Maria_Faustina
Fonts were being weird

[Ice_nine]

shoulders are hot. Who doesn't know that?

[Maria_Faustina]

shoulders are hot. Who doesn't know that?

Try sunscreen?

[CatherineM]

My shoulders are enormous. My neck has been described as Cardasian. So my shoulders often show out of the neck of my shirts. 

[Ash Wednesday]

I didn't start this to complain about dress codes. I was actually looking for reasons why shoulders would be considered immodest, particularly from a Catholic perspective.

I've always understood is that it had to do with the visibility of skin and the body in general -- i.e. avoiding occasions of sin. So tightness of clothing would also apply. I don't know if the Church has ever taught much specifically (like given a prescriptive list to be followed at all times), I've never come across anything about it.

Of course, cultural and social norms have influenced what is immodest by society at large. In the past, a woman's bare shoulders were viewed as more risqué than they are now.

Certain things considered acceptable in church dress code have changed (length of skirts, formality of dress (both men and women), and .........pantaloons...........) but covered shoulders in dress codes has remained pretty common in my experience.

I think as others have pointed out, covering the shoulders at churches imposing a dress code probably has less to do with a Victorian hangover and more to do with formality and avoiding tourists coming in dressed like they just came off the beach.

[puellapaschalis]

My understanding was that it was partly because (women's) shoulders are also erogenous zones, though I doubt that word would be the one used in any document.