Purgatory

[Hananiah]

It's a matter of trust. If you believe that God promised supernatural guidance to the Chruch, that the Spirit of Truth would lead the Church to all truth, then to disbelieve anything that the Church teaches as true is to insult the fidelity of God. That is why denying one dogma makes one a heretic.

Edited June 20, 2004 by Hananiah

[RandomProddy]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Jun 20 2004, 01:49 AM'] Christ was pretty clear about those who refuse to listen to the Church that He gave us. The Church cannot be wrong about anything dealing with faith and morals.

[b]St Matt 18:17[/b] (Jesus said) [color=red]If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.[/color] [/quote]
Ah, let's see, how to treat tax collectors, those that hate the church, gentiles, prostitutes even..

Wow, people like Matthew, Paul, Luke, Mary Magdalene....

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='RandomProddy' date='Jun 19 2004, 08:34 PM']
[quote name='ironmonk @ Jun 20 2004' date=' 01:49 AM']Christ was pretty clear about those who refuse to listen to the Church that He gave us. The Church cannot be wrong about anything dealing with faith and morals.

St Matt 18:17 (Jesus said) If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.[/quote]

Ah, let's see, how to treat tax collectors, those that hate the church, gentiles, prostitutes even..

Wow, people like Matthew, Paul, Luke, Mary Magdalene.... [/quote]
I would not equate Matthew, Paul, Mary Magdalene, etc., with the unrepentant persons being referred to by our Lord in Matthew 18. Context is vital if one is to properly understand the nature of a text.

As St. Paul said in First Corinthian 6:9-11, "Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor sexual perverts, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such [i][b]were[/b][/i] some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God."

The Church, by the will of Christ Himself, has the power necessary to excommunicate a man who is obstinate in his error, whether the error involved concerns a matter of the moral or the dogmatic sphere.

Edited June 20, 2004 by Apotheoun

[qfnol31]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jun 19 2004, 11:52 PM']
Ah, let's see, how to treat tax collectors, those that hate the church, gentiles, prostitutes even..

Wow, people like Matthew, Paul, Luke, Mary Magdalene.... [/QUOTE]
I would not equate Matthew, Paul, Mary Magdalene, etc., with the unrepentant persons being referred to by our Lord in Matthew 18. Context is vital if one is to properly understand the nature of a text.

As St. Paul said in First Corinthian 6:9-11, "Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor sexual perverts, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such [i][b]were[/b][/i] some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God."

The Church, by the will of Christ Himself, has the power necessary to excommunicate a man who is obstinate in his error, whether the error involved concerns a matter of the moral or the dogmatic sphere. [/quote]
I heard a priest give a homily on this once and his take wasn't so much that we're to kick them out, but rather to follow the example Jesus gave throughout the Gospels. The way that the priest said to treat them was to show them charity and try to win them over through love. Unfortunately I can't remember the rest, but this was an interesting take on that passage.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='qfnol31' date='Jun 20 2004, 12:31 AM'][quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jun 19 2004, 11:52 PM']I would not equate Matthew, Paul, Mary Magdalene, etc., with the unrepentant persons being referred to by our Lord in Matthew 18.  Context is vital if one is to properly understand the nature of a text.

As St. Paul said in First Corinthian 6:9-11, "Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor sexual perverts, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.  And such [i][b]were[/b][/i] some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God."

The Church, by the will of Christ Himself, has the power necessary to excommunicate a man who is obstinate in his error, whether the error involved concerns a matter of the moral or the dogmatic sphere. [/quote]
I heard a priest give a homily on this once and his take wasn't so much that we're to kick them out, but rather to follow the example Jesus gave throughout the Gospels. The way that the priest said to treat them was to show them charity and try to win them over through love. Unfortunately I can't remember the rest, but this was an interesting take on that passage.[/quote]
It goes without saying that we must be charitable to everyone, but charity can never be divorced from the truth. The Church's power to excommunicate an obstinate sinner, a power given to it by Christ the Lord Himself, is of a medicinal nature, i.e., it is meant to bring the person to repentance. Excommunication is a very serious matter and the Church does not take it lightly, but not only must she try to bring the lost soul to repentance, but she must also defend from harm those of her members who might be scandalized by a man who blatantly flaunts his error, again whether the error in question is moral or dogmatic. She is, and always must be, a protecting mother, defending her children from those who, for whatever reason, would harm them. As Edith Stein once said, "Do not accept anything as the truth if it lacks love. And do not accept anything as love which lacks truth! One without the other becomes a destructive lie." [cf., Pope John Paul II, [u]Homily at the Canonization of Edith Stein[/u] (St. Theresa Benedicta of the Cross)]

Edited June 20, 2004 by Apotheoun

[ironmonk]

[quote name='Archangel Raphael' date='Jun 19 2004, 09:10 PM'] Ooooo I'm a heretic   Ok sorry sarcasim gets the best of me sometimes *Smacks hand* Bad Justy bad..




LOL

Anyhow, thanks for the info! [/quote]
The Church established by Christ cannot be wrong on faith and morals. That's nothing to laugh about. Since all Christians have believed this from the beginning - and when the Jews had authority, all the Jews believed it - why then does one laugh at it?

Could be that one would laugh because one thought it obserd. That shows that one does not know the One Faith nor the history of it.

It could also be that one simply does not believe it, which would mean that if they do not believe it, how could they be of the One Faith established by Christ? Simply put, they can't. For they reject the one's Christ sent.

Some may say, 'where is the proof of such things?', let's examine and use a little logic.....

[b]St. Matt 16:18[/b] "[color=red]And so I say to you, you are Peter (Kephas), and upon this rock (Kephas) I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it[/color]."
[b]19 [/b][color=red] I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.[/color]"


Here we see Christ establish His Church on Peter. It will never be overcome.


[b]St. Matt 28:20[/b] [color=red]teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.[/color]"

Christ will be with the Church until the end.


[b]Luke 10:16[/b] "[color=red]He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me[/color]"

We believe that if someone rejects the Church after seeing the Truth, through their own fault, that they are denying Jesus. Now, say for example someone is baptist and honestly believes (through no fault of their own) that the baptist church is the Church that Jesus started, then they are Catholic by desire... They have the desire to know the truth and if they are taught that the lie is the truth, then it's not their fault.

Christ cannot be wrong, if the Church speaks for Christ, the Church cannot be wrong.


[b]John 14:16 [/b][color=red]And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate 8 to be with you always,[/color]
[b]17 [/b][color=red]the Spirit of truth, 9 which the world cannot accept, because it neither sees nor knows it. But you know it, because it remains with you, and will be in you. [/color]
[b]18 [/b][color=red]I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you. [/color]
...
[b]26 [/b] [color=red]The Advocate, the holy Spirit that the Father will send in my name--he will teach you everything and remind you of all that (I) told you.[/color]


Jesus promised that the Church would be guided by the Holy Spirit, in Truth. The Church cannot be wrong about faith and morals, because Jesus said so.



[b]1 Tim 3:15[/b]But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.

The Church is the Pillar and Foundation of truth. To be the Pillar and Foundation of Truth, then the Church must have the authority to teach the Word of God, to teach it infallibly. Infallibly because it is guided by God.



If someone does not believe that the Church is infallible, how can they be Catholic? If they do not believe it's infallible, why not? Why is it so hard to believe? Catholicism is worship of the One True God. Those who treat Catholicism as a social club or buffet should be spending their time studying the pros and cons against it, because it is something to important to take lightly. If you are lukewarm, you will get spit out.

[b]Rev. 3:15 [/b]"[color=red]I know your works; I know that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either cold or hot. [/color]
[b]16 [/b][color=red]So, because you are lukewarm, neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth. [/color]
[b]17 [/b][color=red]For you say, 'I am rich and affluent and have no need of anything,' and yet do not realize that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked.[/color]
[b]18 [/b][color=red]I advise you to buy from me gold refined by fire so that you may be rich, and white garments to put on so that your shameful nakedness may not be exposed, and buy ointment to smear on your eyes so that you may see.[/color]
[b]19 [/b][color=red]Those whom I love, I reprove and chastise. Be earnest, therefore, and repent.[/color]
[b]20 [/b]" '"[color=red]Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, (then) I will enter his house and dine with him, and he with me. [/color]


Those who love Christ change for Christ.

Being a heretic is nothing to be proud of. Believing in heresy means no Eucharist. Everytime someone takes the Eucharist, they are proclaiming that they believe all that the Catholic Church teaches. If they do not, they eat and drink judgment upon themselves.

St. Thomas (II-II:11:1) defines heresy: "a species of infidelity in men who, having professed the faith of Christ, corrupt its dogmas". "The right Christian faith consists in giving one's voluntary assent to Christ in all that truly belongs to His teaching. There are,therefore,two ways of deviating from Christianity: the one by refusing to believe in Christ Himself, which is the way of infidelity, common to Pagans and Jews; the other by restricting belief to certain points of Christ's doctrine selected and fashioned at pleasure, which is the way of heretics. The subject-matter of both faith and heresy is, therefore, the deposit of the faith, that is, the sum total of truths revealed in Scripture and Tradition as proposed to our belief by the Church. The believer accepts the whole deposit as proposed by the Church; the heretic accepts only such parts of it as commend themselves to his own approval. The heretical tenets may be ignorance of the true creed, erroneous judgment, imperfect apprehension and comprehension of dogmas: in none of these does the will play an appreciable part, wherefore one of the necessary conditions of sinfulness--free choice--is wanting and such heresy is merely objective, or material. On the other hand the will may freely incline the intellect to adhere to tenets declared false by the Divine teaching authority of the Church. The impelling motives are many: intellectual pride or exaggerated reliance on one's own insight; the illusions of religious zeal; the allurements of political or ecclesiastical power; the ties of material interests and personal status; and perhaps others more dishonourable. Heresy thus willed is imputable to the subject and carries with it a varying degree of guilt; it is called formal, because to the material error it adds the informative element of "freely willed".



[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07256b.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07256b.htm[/url]


The beauty of knowing the above is knowing that you have the power to reject heresy and come into the fullness of Truth.

God Bless,
ironmonk

Edited June 20, 2004 by ironmonk

[RandomProddy]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Jun 20 2004, 01:49 AM'] If someone refuses to believe something the Church teaches, then how can they be Catholic? If they refuse a teaching of the Church left by Christ, they are not Catholic, but heretic or schismatic. [/quote]
Oh noes! My dad's going to the US on a plane, I better warn him the earth is still flat and his plane might fall off the edge...

Oh wait, I forgot, he's Presbyterian, he might be ok

Edited June 20, 2004 by RandomProddy

[Archangel Raphael]

[quote name='RandomProddy' date='Jun 20 2004, 04:40 PM'] Oh noes! My dad's going to the US on a plane, I better warn him the earth is still flat and his plane might fall off the edge...

Oh wait, I forgot, he's Presbyterian, he might be ok [/quote]
Lol! Good one


Sorry Ironmonk, I should know better though not to start any conflicts, then again, Jesus didn't come to bring peace either during His time. Also I haven't been in the most tolerable mood lately, so forgive the sarcasim.

Well anyway, in all honesty I can't really sit there and believe that every detail of the Catholic church is 100% right. As I stated before, I believe they have more truth than any other Christian denomination out there, which is great n all. And I know Christ told Peter, "And so I say to you, you are Peter (Kephas), and upon this rock (Kephas) I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it." But I don't see anywhere in that verse that the Church isn't going to have any flaws or flukes in it somewhere along the cracks. Cause think about it, there were bad popes back then, I mean the Catholic church has been responsible for martyring some of their own believers (like Joan of Arc).

The way I interpret that verse, is the Catholic Church will not fall, as in, all other denominations may fall away and grow corrupted (like allowing abortion and homosexual priests and such). But the Catholic Church, the one He charged Peter to begin, will not fall into that as a whole.

But again, I just can't sit there and believe that a Church teaching, whether they were first or not, can live through the ages and not be at least a fluke here and there in their teaching or law. Besides, even if the doctrine is perfect, the people aren't. Look at the Jews (not talking Messianic btw), they were the REAL FIRST before even the Catholics and they had God's Law given to them by Moses. Just like Jesus giving the law to Peter for the Church. Yet you got many Jews today who believe the Messiah hasn't come yet! So even if the Catholic law may be 100% right, it is the people who have to interpret it, and people are fallible.

You can show me all the 'proof' you want about the Catholic church being 'perfect' in its ways. You can go on and acuse me and think lower of me (and don't tell me you aren't, some of you are whether you may consciously know it or not) because I don't pray to saints (not against it either) nor not believe in a rapture. Excuse me for wanting to speak to Jesus myself and have a Father-son relationship with God the Father (besides, I heard that some pray to saints because they may be itimidated or ashamed to come to Christ. Yet didn't He say we ought to come BOLDY to the Throne of Grace? Hasn't Jesus bore that shame for us?), and excuse me on thinking that I think Jesus loves His Bride too much (the ones who are truely following Him) to allow them to suffer through horrible tribulation from already going through their own already.

So ya, I ain't going to hell or getting a crown of hay cause I'm not Catholic.

Edited June 20, 2004 by Archangel Raphael

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

[quote]Excuse me for wanting to speak to Jesus myself and have a Father-son relationship with God the Father (besides, I heard that some pray to saints because they may be itimidated or ashamed to come to Christ. Yet didn't He say we ought to come BOLDY to the Throne of Grace? Hasn't Jesus bore that shame for us?), and excuse me on thinking that I think Jesus loves His Bride too much (the ones who are truely following Him) to allow them to suffer through horrible tribulation from already going through their own already.[/quote]
Who said you can't have a father-son relationship?

Edited June 20, 2004 by thedude

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

[quote name='RandomProddy' date='Jun 20 2004, 04:40 PM'] Oh noes! My dad's going to the US on a plane, I better warn him the earth is still flat and his plane might fall off the edge...

Oh wait, I forgot, he's Presbyterian, he might be ok [/quote]
Haven't you heard of the Catholic doctrine of papal infallibility? Thats what he's refering too.

Edited June 20, 2004 by thedude

[ironmonk]

AR,

I don't why but I thought you were Catholic, hence the angle I took.

Christ built one Church and all who leave it are wrong to do so.

[b]Acts 20:29 [/b]I know that after my departure savage wolves will come among you, and they will not spare the flock.
[b]30 [/b]And from your own group, men will come forward perverting the truth to draw the disciples away after them.

[b]2 Peter 3:16 [/b]As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction.

The only way to know that one has the full truth is to be with the Church established by Christ.


Now, people who have grown up in non-Catholic faiths and believe that they are serving God the way God wants, then they are considered Catholic by desire. But, if someone knows that the Catholic Church was built by Christ, and refuses to be Catholic, there is no chance of salvation for them.

Notice how you say "I interpret". Unless you are infallible, you can be wrong.
[b]2 Peter 1:20[/b] Understanding this first, that no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation.

[b]Acts 20:30 [/b] Philip ran up and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet and said, "Do you understand what you are reading?"
[b]31 [/b]He replied, "How can I, unless someone instructs me?" So he invited Philip to get in and sit with him.


The Catholic Church gave us the Canon of the New Testament, if the Catholic Church is not infallible, then the New Testament could have the wrong books in it and missing books and therefore is worthless because the bible could be wrong. If the bible is wrong, how can there be a God?

The Catholic Church is infallibe and has the only authority to properly interpret scripture. It is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth - It is the Church of the Living God. It has the Real Pressence. But these are all topics for another thread.



thedude,
I was talking about how the Catholic Church official teachings are infallible. They are infallible because the Holy Spirit Guides the Church, just as Christ promised.

Just as in the Old Testament times, the high priest spoke infallibly, because the Holy Spirit guided him.

There is Papal Infability and there is the Church's official teachings are infallible.



God Bless,
ironmonk

[Guest JeffCR07]

A discrepency must be made with regards to what has been said above (this argument between Ironmonk et. all about infallibility).

The Catholic Church [i]can[/i] be infallible, but only with regards to matters of faith and morals. The (caustic) comment made about the world being flat was really not a relevent point, due to the fact that it was not a matter of faith or morals, though many people attempted, falsely, to make it into one.

Now, when it comes to the infallible stature of the Church, there are, as Apotheoun has established [i]many[/i] times thoughout phatmass, 3 levels of authority from which the Magisterium teaches.

The teachings of the Magisterium are infallible in two ways:

First: If either the Holy Father, or a council of the Bishops in communion with the Holy Father, establish something [i]definitively[/i] . Any "defining statement" is infallible. These such things include [i]ex cathedra[/i] statements by the Pope, or definitive clauses within the texts and teachings of an ecumenical council.

Second: A teaching of the Magisterium can be infallible if it is universally taught throughout the world by the Bishops, and is in communion with the Holy Father. Before the Assumption of Mary was [i]definitively[/i] established, it was still infallible, due to the fact that it was universally taught by the Bishops, despite their being spread across the face of the globe, and because it was in union with the teachings of the Pope. (ie, the only people who taught otherwise were a few renegade priests here and there).

All other teachings of the Magisterium should still be accepted with a humble heart and mind, due to the fact that the weight of the Magisterium's authority is not limited merely to infallible teachings.

However, it would be in error to say, as broadly as Ironmonk did, that [quote]The Catholic Church is infallibe [/quote]

At the same time, however, Archangel Raphael, you should also be careful about how far you take the admitted fallibility of the Church, for not a single matter of Dogma has [i]ever[/i] been contradicted: only clarified. This is testament to the true workings of the Spirit in the guiding of the Church.

Also, the Catholic Church is not merely "more right" or "more true" than the other Churches. The Bride of Christ has the Fullness of Truth, and has had it since the beginning, however we being, as you have so duly noted, imperfect, need the workings of the Spirit in order to grow in our understanding OF that Truth. The Magisterium, the Church, is NOT what is lacking: We are.

Men are fallible, and have done stupid things in the name of the Church. But this is not the fault of the Church. Rather, it is to her credit, for it is very rare that a flaw in one of her members leads to the expulsion of that member.

Remember, everyone, that the Church is as accepting and forgiving as we are humble and contrite. Our flaws are Her strength, as long as we are willing to offer those flaws up to Christ. We are weak, not Her.

- Your Brother in Christ, Jeff

[RandomProddy]

[quote name='thedude' date='Jun 21 2004, 12:47 AM'] Haven't you heard of the Catholic doctrine of papal infallibility? Thats what he's refering too. [/quote]
No, he was referring more generally to, and I quote:

"If someone refuses to believe something the Church teaches, then how can they be Catholic? If they refuse a teaching of the Church left by Christ, they are not Catholic, but heretic or schismatic."

I.E. "the church teaches" not "the one infallible dogma Pius defined".

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

[quote]thedude,
I was talking about how the Catholic Church official teachings are infallible. They are infallible because the Holy Spirit Guides the Church, just as Christ promised.

Just as in the Old Testament times, the high priest spoke infallibly, because the Holy Spirit guided him.

There is Papal Infability and there is the Church's official teachings are infallible.



God Bless,
ironmonk[/quote]

Yeah, I wasn't thinking.

[quote]No, he was referring more generally to, and I quote:

"If someone refuses to believe something the Church teaches, then how can they be Catholic? If they refuse a teaching of the Church left by Christ, they are not Catholic, but heretic or schismatic."

I.E. "the church teaches" not "the one infallible dogma Pius defined".[/quote]

My mistake.

[RandomProddy]

[quote name='thedude' date='Jun 21 2004, 02:52 AM'] My mistake. [/quote]
No biggie